FULL TRANSCRIPT: Please note this transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

00:00:01:04 – 00:00:33:28

This is the Portrait System podcast, a show that helps portrait photographers and people hoping to become one, navigate the world of photography, business, money and so much more. We totally keep it real. We share stories about the incredible ups and the very difficult downs when running a photography business. I’m your host, Nikki Closser. And the point of this podcast is for you to learn actionable steps that you can take to grow your own business and also to feel inspired and empowered by the stories you hear. Hey, everyone. Your hosts, Ashleigh and Kevin this week interviewed Keeley Miller, and they had such a great conversation.

00:00:34:09 – 00:00:55:21

They talked about how she’s a very young entrepreneur and how that may or may not have affected the growth of her business. They talked about how she approached business at such a young age, the avenues she took to learn about starting a business as well as doing boudoir and what she calls a Bare Campaign. This was such an awesome interview and I can’t wait for you to listen. Here is Kevin Conde, Ashleigh Taylor and Keeley Miller.

00:00:56:09 – 00:01:27:23

Welcome, everyone, to the Portrait System podcast, clubhouse edition. My name is Kevin Conde and I’m here with my co-host, Ashleigh Taylor. If you are not familiar with the portrait system, we are a portrait photography podcast that is powered by Sue Bryce education. Nikki Closser hosts our regular Monday episodes and Ashleigh and I co-host, our clubhouse edition, which is live here on the clubhouse app every Friday at noon Pacific. And then our episodes are released on Thursdays. You can tune in on your favorite podcast app by searching for the portrait system. Ashleigh

00:01:27:25 – 00:01:28:13

How you doing today?

00:01:29:01 – 00:01:30:13

Aloha, Kevin.

00:01:32:00 – 00:01:47:20

I am so excited to be here. Cohosting our chat with you as per usual. And I’m so excited to introduce our guest for today, Keeley Miller, who is a portrait photographer based in San Diego, California. So hi, Keeley

00:01:48:09 – 00:01:50:28

Hello. I’m so excited to be here today.

00:01:51:13 – 00:02:22:18

So you came onto our radar as one of the one thousand episodes from the portrait system podcasts where you discussed your first one thousand dollars in. One of the things that stood out to us when listening to your story was just how young you were when you first started your business. So we thought it would be a great opportunity to talk to someone who started building your business and took on entrepreneurship from a very young age. But before we get into you starting your business, let’s talk about your numbers.

00:02:23:25 – 00:02:28:18

First off, how old are you now and how old were you when you first picked up your camera?

00:02:29:13 – 00:03:04:09

Oh, gosh, I am 23 years old now, Kevin. I first picked up my camera when I was probably about eight or nine. I really have a hard time remembering a time in my life where I did not have a camera in my hand, but I essentially started my business. So I’m going to use air quotes there. I started my business when I was 12 years old. That’s when I started, you know, charging for my photography. And of course, by charging it was about fifty dollars, which was a really, really big deal when you’re 12 years old, right?

00:03:04:17 – 00:03:05:02

Yeah.

00:03:05:23 – 00:03:10:29

Wow. When you’re twelve. Yeah. Fifty dollars is like being rich, so.

00:03:11:21 – 00:03:16:00

Oh, I was so rich. I was so rich when I was 12 years old. Absolutely.

00:03:16:11 – 00:03:20:29

And who are your clients at this time when you were 12 years old photographing people.

00:03:21:13 – 00:03:31:00

Everybody. Kevin, I kind of joke now that at some point in my life I have photographed every single genre except for babies.

00:03:32:25 – 00:04:06:04

So I think that my first my very first photo shoot was just a family friend who reached out to me because, of course, I had been taking pictures for a few years at that point. And of course, they were not good at all. But luckily, a family friend reached out to me and asked me if I would take their family portraits. And of course, at the time fifty dollars, I was like, absolutely, you’ll pay me, you know? What do you mean you’ll pay me for doing something that I love? So my very first clients were things like family photos, senior photos.

00:04:06:06 – 00:04:36:20

I actually got started as well in sports photography. I worked in photojournalism for a while as a teenager, so I would be shooting football and running and sports. And when I was 15, I started looking back. Now it’s hilarious. When I was 15, I started shooting weddings. So I did that for a long time. But now I only photograph women. I exclusively specialize in showing women how beautiful they already are. So for me, that looks like a blend of boudoir and beauty photography.

00:04:37:08 – 00:04:47:01

Can I ask, were you ever intimidated by being so much younger than your clientele and the people who were hiring you when you first started?

00:04:47:18 – 00:05:25:25

Absolutely. And to some degree, I still am. And it’s it’s so funny because I feel like as business owners, we’re always saying, oh, once I reach this average sale, or once I reach for me, once I reach this age or once I get a studio or once I do this certain thing, then I’ll feel good enough. Then I’ll feel worthy and then I’ll feel successful. And it’s so crazy how we do that, because as I’m sure that everybody in this audience understands, once you reach that number, once you reach that goal, that goalpost just moves ahead a little bit.

00:05:25:27 – 00:06:00:04

So to answer your question, absolutely, I was intimidated. But when I think about it, looking back, especially when I was even younger than I am now, I think most of that drama came from my own brain. I can’t think of a single situation where I had a client come to me and be like, well, you’re too young, we can’t hire you. Or, you know, after after their photo shoot or after the wedding or after doing the work, I’m looking at me being like, well, the photos are good, but you are too young and we don’t like it anymore.

00:06:00:06 – 00:06:11:27

We’re going to leave you a one star review because you’re too young or anything like that. So I think overall kind of that intimidation has always come from my own brain.

00:06:12:12 – 00:06:46:10

That makes perfect sense. I was not young as you when I started my business, but I’m really short for those of you who haven’t met me in person. I am 4’11”. So I was young when I started my business, but I’ve always looked a lot younger, I think, because people just see that I’m like kind of child size so they assume I’m a child. And when I would shoot weddings, sometimes people would ask me things like, Oh, are you in high school or is this your real job? And I was like in my early twenties, like your age now, like twenty three.

00:06:46:15 – 00:07:21:24

And I would get so offended. No! I’m not in high school, and I remember talking to Sue when I started my portrait business because I wanted to go after the 40 year old demographic and I felt like, again, I just felt like I wasn’t taken seriously a lot of the time because I felt like my clients might feel like I was too young or a child. And she was just like, well, you just got to show them. Like, if they think you’re a child, show them you’re a child prodigy then show them that you’re like the best.

00:07:21:26 – 00:07:50:26

And I took her words to heart. And then it got to this point where I stopped thinking about it. And she actually had to remind me, I don’t remember what I participated in, but some live thing. And she’s like, do you remember how you used to be intimidated? And I was like, no. Oh, oh, yeah, I do. But like, once you embrace it and you just don’t let it bother you, it’s really amazing how you can forget that it was ever a problem at all because it really is all in our brains, like you said.

00:07:51:19 – 00:08:21:01

Oh, absolutely. And I think a big shift for me when I look at really any stage in my business is just being willing to be uncomfortable, you know what I mean? Like being willing to be uncomfortable with my age or being willing to be uncomfortable with not having a studio space or being willing to be uncomfortable just saying, OK, this is my pricing. What would you like to buy? You know, and just having that. Oh, my gosh, I want to puke moment. Yeah.

00:08:21:09 – 00:08:37:12

Yeah. It’s just about putting yourself out there is what I feel like you’re saying, because even if you are scared or uncomfortable, you never really know how someone is going to react to it. And sometimes it’s very surprising that they can react so positively. But you have to take that chance to put yourself out there.

00:08:38:03 – 00:08:39:10

One hundred percent

00:08:39:28 – 00:08:57:21

Keeley, you brought up the studio space. You were you running out of your your house at the time parents house. And are you still doing that? I don’t I’m not sure if at 18 you’re still unknown, but, you know, that’s a possibility. And are you currently shooting out of your own studio now?

00:08:58:10 – 00:09:41:27

Yeah. So to answer your question, I do currently have my own studio space. I did it not too long ago, so I moved to San Diego from Indianapolis, Indiana, almost two years ago now. And my entire time in Indiana, I never had my own commercial space. So sometimes I would rent a studio space out if I wanted to shoot in the studio. But the way that I would handle that with IPS is I would just travel to my client’s home. So my my poor Honda Civic was always loaded in the back with wall art samples and album samples that I would carry in like take me like three trips to carry it all in because Ashleigh, like, I’m short two, I’m only five two.

00:09:42:04 – 00:10:09:12

So I’d be like carrying everything and and multiple trips because I have no arm muscles. And that was just how I did it. I would go to my clients homes. And of course, during that time, like we just spoke about, I had that brain drama. Oh, they won’t take me seriously because I don’t have my own studio space. But in reality, my clients actually loved it because it just allowed me to provide even more value and even more convenience for them.

00:10:10:09 – 00:10:43:16

I was going to say I’ve had to do a couple, even though I have a studio I’ve had to do over the years. A few reveals at clients homes for various reasons where maybe they had something going on in their life and they just couldn’t make it into the studio, or in some cases they wanted to see like what the things would look like in their home. And I feel like my biggest sales have always been when I went to the client’s house. But I don’t really want to spend my time driving all the way around the client’s houses, which is why I don’t do it all the time.

00:10:43:24 – 00:10:55:10

But I will say when I’ve done it, I’ve always been like, oh my gosh, this is kind of epic because I feel like once the art is in their home, it’s almost like this totally different experience where they’re like, I’m keeping that thank you.

00:10:57:24 – 00:11:03:03

Like it just belongs there when they see the how the pictures could potentially look in their own space.

00:11:03:20 – 00:11:39:11

That’s such a good point. And I am totally in agreement with you. My first ten thousand dollars sale was you’ll laugh. I was twenty years old and I was in college and it was on my client’s couch in their living room. And, you know, I probably I sat there for about two or three hours because they ordered multiple albums and multiple pieces of wall art. And I didn’t even realize it was a ten thousand dollar sale until I got back in my car. And I think that, you know, that limitation of not having a studio, just like you said, I think that I’ve had my best value in my best sales from being in my client’s home.

00:11:39:28 – 00:11:57:18

You know, I was going to say by the sound of it seems like it brings a more intimate meeting between you and also being able to look at, say, a wall or multiple walls like, yeah, you can go one there, you can go one there, you can go one there, and really sell them on the idea of filling their home with art.

00:11:58:03 – 00:12:29:15

Absolutely, yeah. Kevin, I was going to say the same thing. It’s I think people will say, oh, I don’t have the room or whatever. And when you’re in your own studio, you can’t be like, oh, yes, you do. You can’t see what their home looks like. I think we did have Felicia on a few episodes ago and she did say that she has the clients send pictures, which is a really cool idea that I want to start implementing of their home. But when you’re in their home, you can be like, actually, right here is this amazing spot. And then they’re like, oh, yeah.

00:12:29:17 – 00:12:42:00

And you can point out things in their decor and their vibe. And it’s just it really is super amazing. It’s obviously very time consuming. But it it really is an amazing experience to go into a client’s home.

00:12:42:24 – 00:13:00:26

So you didn’t have a studio, you would go to your client’s house or potentially rent a studio space. What else did you have in the beginning when you first started just starting off what camera did you have? What lens? Did you have apple boxes at this point or what were you what did you have?

00:13:01:14 – 00:13:06:12

When I when I was 12, I stole my mom’s old Canon Rebel, Kevin

00:13:09:03 – 00:13:40:09

I had at the very beginning. I stole her old canon rebele. I do think I ask permission, but I essentially took it from her and it had. Oh gosh it had. Is it the eighteen – fifty five kit lens the eighteen to fifty five. And then I think it’s like a fifty five to two hundred kit lens as well. So I had the whole setup and I would edit, you know, on free apps, on my parents computer, I would have to bum rides to my photo shoot.

00:13:40:11 – 00:14:13:21

But looking back I really I just made it work and I don’t think my clients ever really cared. And maybe because they were getting photos for fifty bucks, they were getting a really good deal. But I don’t think my clients ever really cared because I was always trying to keep myself focused on, you know, how can I give them even from the very beginning, how can I give them a good experience? And obviously over the years that has evolved and added things such as my studio or my apple boxes, which I can’t imagine working without any more.

00:14:14:21 – 00:14:17:16

But at the very beginning, yeah, I had nothing.

00:14:18:13 – 00:14:40:27

Keeley, I was wondering if you could just catch us up for a second on like where are you now in your business in terms of like your current average sale, how many shoots a month? I think it would really help people to have like a kind of before and after sense. I know you since you started. That’s a lot. That’s already like, what? Eleven years of your life. I think you said you were twenty three. Yeah. Right.

00:14:44:06 – 00:14:44:22

Yeah.

00:14:45:03 – 00:15:07:15

From fifty dollars to my average right now is around thirty five hundred. And of course I’ve had some sales over 10k and I’ve had some sales under a thousand. So it really, it really just varies as I’m sure you understand. But I average around thirty five hundred now I photograph between six to ten clients a month. You know it obviously varies in my studio in San Diego.

00:15:07:24 – 00:15:21:06

That’s amazing. And can I ask, when did you discover to Sue Brycein this whole process? Because I didn’t even I mean I guess I’m older than you. So when I was younger, maybe those resources weren’t around. But

00:15:22:23 – 00:15:28:12

I’m just amazed that you even, like, found all these resources to educate yourself a young age.

00:15:29:12 – 00:16:05:06

I am so, so lucky that I stumbled into the world of Sue Bryce education because honestly, that is what really started to get me into IPS. And so I think that I came across Sue when I was probably around eighteen years old, and I’m not sure if it was a combination of other photographers in my area talking about her or just finding her through Facebook or whatever it is. Somehow I stumbled across her and a couple other Facebook groups and before that time I didn’t even realize that sales like this were possible.

00:16:05:08 – 00:16:49:07

You know, all I was doing at that point, I was probably charging around five hundred or six hundred dollars for a photo shoot, all inclusive with the digital files sent afterwards. And I didn’t really even realize how much possibility there was for things like albums and folio boxes and wall art or even just going to your client’s house and helping them pick out their favorite photos. And so Sue Bryce education again, I am so lucky that I had that resource available when I did because it really just leveraged me to start doing IPS, even though at the time, you know, I went into it with that, oh my gosh, I want to puke feeling because those numbers just seem so high and so out of reach for me.

00:16:49:17 – 00:16:55:25

But once I started. Doing it, and once I started offering that to my clients, it really just took off my entire business.

00:16:56:21 – 00:17:15:22

That’s so awesome. And then what? Like what were you doing? So you said at 18 you discovered Sue Bryce education. But like, can you kind of because we know the 12 year old. But what were you doing at 18? Like what was that feeling when you what were you up to when you discovered her and what did your business look like at 18?

00:17:17:03 – 00:17:50:09

When I was 18, I was still shooting a little bit of everything. By that time, I was mostly focused in on weddings, engagement photos and senior portraits. So I was kind of more into the wedding and portrait world because earlier I was doing sports and photojournalism and everything under the moon. So my sessions look like either a portrait session. You’ll come in for your senior portraits. I’ll meet you on location. I would be shooting for a couple hours and I would be delivering one hundred, one hundred and fifty photos.

00:17:50:18 – 00:18:23:08

And that would be the last time that I spoke to them. And the way that I started doing IPS was kind of doing a hybrid model, which I don’t really know if I would recommend or suggest anymore, but it was frankly, because I was too scared to launch fully into IPS or in-person sales. So after my photo shoots, I would start asking my clients like, hey, I, I have these, you know, like these new albums. Maybe maybe you maybe you might want an album for your kid or.

00:18:23:18 – 00:18:55:21

Oh, maybe if you want like a canvas, you know, I can help you pick out a canvas. And most of the time my clients, especially my senior clients, the parents are like, yes, absolutely. That sounds really cool. So after their photo shoot, even though they would get all the digital images, I would go to their home and pull up all their photos for them and kind of walk them through some of the limited options that I had at the time and really just gave them the option to add on an album or add on some wall art if they wanted to

00:18:56:02 – 00:19:08:22

Now when you’re selling them these wall arts or albums, were you charging what would be considered professional standard pricing or you still kind of low balling yourself and when you’re trying to sell to them?

00:19:08:27 – 00:19:37:20

Oh, definitely low balling. I think my markup was probably only two times the lab costs. So it was definitely not something that would have been a sustainable business model. But I think even even though that’s not something I would recommend, I think that that point, realizing that I was providing value for my clients and realizing that, hey, this is something that my clients actually really want was just a really big shift.

00:19:38:04 – 00:20:13:19

How did you figure out, like, oh, charging two times the lab cost is not going to be profitable or like I feel like there’s that point where the people, including myself, who transition from, like, shoot and burn and like low balling prices to something that’s more sustainable, profitable, an industry standard. You have that point where you kind of have to realize like, oh, this isn’t as much money as I think it is. Like, was it education that you realize that from or was it just like getting a bookkeeper or doing your numbers yourself? Like what made you realize it?

00:20:14:04 – 00:20:47:29

I think from education I had the inkling of an idea that maybe these prices aren’t right. But my friends who are in the audience are they’re going to laugh so hard at this because I love spreadsheets, spreadsheets soothe me. I am on Google Sheets all day long, so I think it would have been some education somewhere that gave me the urge to really calculate my numbers and calculate my expenses and calculate tax and calculate how much money I was actually making.

00:20:48:01 – 00:21:14:09

Because when you’re making one thousand two thousand dollars sales at nineteen twenty, you think that you’re making a lot of money. Of course. But I wasn’t factoring in oh I’m shooting for like four hours. Oh I’m delivering albums and wall art. Oh I’m driving to their house multiple times. And so it was a spreadsheet which is the funniest thing I get. My friends are going to laugh. It was a spreadsheet that made me wake up and realize, oh, I need to have sustainable pricing.

00:21:14:27 – 00:21:25:26

And just for clarity’s sake, what exactly was in that spreadsheet that you’re like, yeah, where where are you calculating? Like drive time and shoot time and retouch time within that.

00:21:26:07 – 00:22:03:27

What else? Yes. So the way that I calculated the spreadsheet and I’m sure that there’s a ton of templates online for anybody listening, I’m sure I’m going to forget a few things when I go through this. So I went through, OK, how much am I getting paid? And then, you know, just subtracting from that. So minus things like the credit card fee, minus the actual cost of goods sold, minus the cost of my packaging. Minus the cost of my equipment, like every year, so I calculate, OK, how much is my equipment cost per photo shoot? Again, I love to nerd out with my spreadsheets, so I would calculate, like, my membership’s, my subscription, my websites, my marketing.

00:22:03:29 – 00:22:44:21

I would break that all down into how much it cost per photo shoot based on how many clients I would take, you know, each year. And then once I subtracted that, I kind of went to an oh crap moment and then I had to go through, OK, I’m going to get taxed on this. And then I realized how much I was actually making per photo shoot. And then I went through and I calculated how many hours I was spending per client. And at that time it was between like 40 to 60 hours per client. And so when I divided that actual number by 50, I was realizing I’m not even making minimum wage like this is this is probably not going to be a sustainable model.

00:22:44:23 – 00:22:52:19

So if you haven’t actually run your numbers yet, I highly, highly, highly recommend doing that because you’ll probably be surprised.

00:22:53:00 – 00:23:29:06

I totally agree. I always think when photographers struggle to say their pricing, meaning the industry standard pricing that is taught through SBE and they’re like, oh, that just sounds so much. I struggle to see it. I’m like, you should really do the costs on that. Because when you realize like that, the money that you get to keep from your price list that starts at fifteen hundred or whatever is pretty small, then you start realizing like to say it confidently because you are like I literally can’t charge less like I would be doing this for free or at a deficit if I charge less.

00:23:29:08 – 00:23:43:21

So I really have to be confident. Like I just think it gives you this like mental clarity to do the numbers. And I really recommend everyone do them and even do them for like the SBE pricing, you know, like what you actually get to keep from that.

00:23:44:13 – 00:24:12:07

The fact that a lot of photographers, when they’re starting out creating the spreadsheet, yes. They’re doing their cost of doing business in Coggs as well. But they don’t even factor in the idea of. Potential savings accounts for IRAs, vacation time, you know, do you do anything along those lines that might, you know, help live a more fulfilling life as a business owner?

00:24:12:09 – 00:24:14:08

Kevin, I have spreadsheets for that.

00:24:14:15 – 00:24:15:00

Oh,

00:24:16:18 – 00:24:17:03

no,

00:24:17:05 – 00:24:50:06

no, no. But really, I that is definitely something you need to factor in as well, especially for business owners like me. I live on my own. I don’t I don’t have like a husband or income. And luckily I don’t have any kids except my cat. But I do have to factor in things like, all right, how are you going to pay your rent? How are you going to pay your car insurance? How are you going to feed yourself? What about your Roth IRA, you know, savings and stuff like that. But one exercise that I like to do every year is kind of make a little map of what I want my next five years to look like.

00:24:50:08 – 00:25:19:16

So, for example, in the year twenty, twenty two, I have it blocked off to take off two entire months throughout the year of vacation time. You know, I have it blocked off. All right. This is how much you’re going to put into savings. This is how much you want to invest. This is how much you want to put into your Roth IRA so that I can really set myself up for success so that I’m not just saying, OK, I need to make this much in my business to pay my rent, but I need to make this much in my business to live the life that I want to live.

00:25:19:27 – 00:25:40:05

That’s awesome. I like hearing other people take that into consideration because like I said, a lot of people don’t value themselves who want to create anything like that. They’re afraid of charging because obviously that would mean they’d have to raise their prices. But but, yeah, I just I just find it a valuable piece of information for people to take on.

00:25:40:29 – 00:25:42:21

Compound interest is great.

00:25:44:25 – 00:26:11:07

That is very good, especially starting at such a young age. I mean, that’s you’re going to have an amazing retirement if you’re already like twenty three and thinking about this, I mean some people don’t even get serious about it until, you know, their mid 30s or 40s even. So, you’re way ahead of the game, Keeley. And I hope it inspires people, whatever age they’re at in the audience, to start taking things like retirement seriously.

00:26:12:25 – 00:26:48:03

This is a great moment to open it up to audience questions. So if you are here live and you have a question for Keeley, now is the time that you can raise your hand to ask your question. So you’ll just press the hand icon in the lower right hand part of the screen and then we can bring you up on stage for you to state your name and ask your question. And while we’re waiting for questions to come in, I was curious, like, how did you realize? Like, at what point did you realize like.

00:26:49:01 – 00:27:22:09

This is a business that I’m running because there’s really a big difference between like a hobby, you know, we’re like kind of like how you started 12, loving to photograph someone offers you 50 bucks. You’re like, yeah, it’s kind of like a you are getting paid, but it’s more on that amateur level where you’re just like, whatever. I’m just along for the ride. And then I know you said you discovered education at some point, but like, when did you when did you realize, like, this is what I want to do with my life. This is my career path that I’m choosing, and I am going to take this seriously as a business.

00:27:22:17 – 00:27:54:03

Great question. So to answer that, I moved out at 18, I went to college. So I do actually have a bachelor’s degree. So I did go to college for three years and during that time was really that transitioning time of when I switched to IPS and started really focusing on building a sustainable business at the time I was in Indiana. But, you know, obviously I had things like rent was due and car insurance is due and college expenses is due and college isn’t cheap.

00:27:54:05 – 00:28:30:09

So I did have a lot of hard expenses that were suddenly hitting me, whereas before it was, OK, I’m going to get paid and this is more fun money. Maybe I’ll save some of it. But it really took that slap in the face of, OK, you have to pay everything by yourself. You know, you don’t have, you know, anybody here to help you to really make me wake up and be like, OK, are you going to make this a sustainable business? Are you going to want to do this full time? So I did go to college and I studied public relations and I studied advertising and I looked at careers in public relations and advertising.

00:28:30:11 – 00:28:40:04

And it really just was a decision that I had to make of, OK, this is what I want to do and I’m going to make it work. It was that kind of do or die.

00:28:41:17 – 00:29:02:04

That’s amazing. I mean, it’s amazing that you started a business while you’re in college, too. Like, that’s just being a student in college is a lot of work. So to also be really up level in your business, I’m really running it and taking it seriously is really speaks to how amazing you are at just getting it all done.

00:29:05:23 – 00:29:42:19

So once you decided, OK, I’m taking this seriously, you have your spreadsheets, you’re realizing you need to up your prices, you’re learning everything. How did you, like, practically start raising your prices to maybe past clients, just getting confident, seeing your prices out loud. That’s a question we always get a lot in the group from people starting out is just the really simple steps. It might seem simple once you passed it, but those just first steps of like, how do I tell my old clients that I raise my prices? How do I get comfortable saying these big numbers out loud? When people call like that whole process?

00:29:42:28 – 00:29:45:20

It really is nauseating.

00:29:47:17 – 00:30:28:28

I remember like after I started sending out, like, my price sheet when I started doing album sales and wall art sales. And again, these were very unsustainable numbers. But when I started saying that, it really is just allowing yourself to feel scared, allowing yourself to feel that, not allowing yourself to feel I’m going to puke and I’m not sure, oh, gosh, I wish I could tell you who gave me this advice, but I remember somebody telling me when I was 18 or 19 to just stand in front of a mirror and recite like my phone script and recite my pricing and saying, OK, my album starts at this.

00:30:29:00 – 00:30:50:23

My wall art starts at this. My top collection. Is this in literally saying that to your reflection in the mirror. And I know that it sounds a little silly, but it really is just practicing saying those things out loud that over time is going to help that nausea in that it keeps you feeling slowly subside and go away.

00:30:51:09 – 00:30:59:19

I totally agree. I mean, I know I don’t know if Sue was the person you heard it from, but I know I’ve heard that from Sue to say it probably was Sue.

00:31:01:11 – 00:31:33:04

Yeah. And that’s how I got confident. And I also had an accountability buddy. Accountability, buddy, I guess you can call it, where we would call each other and each practice saying our praises out loud and the other person would kind of pretend to be a quiet and kind of essentially be difficult so that we could have that practice in a safe space of like hearing someone be like, oh, that’s ridiculous. Or like whatever your worst fears were, it just made it so much easier to handle when you’re out in the real world.

00:31:33:06 – 00:31:44:06

And if someone reacts like that, it’s kind of like, oh, I have experience in dealing with that. So that’s the second step. I would say if you want to go beyond a mirror for anyone, that’s a

00:31:44:08 – 00:31:44:23

great

00:31:44:29 – 00:31:54:00

accountability buddy. And there’s so many people in the SBE members only group that I think would love to have a phone buddy to be on the phone with and practice with.

00:31:54:24 – 00:32:11:02

What an awesome idea, especially having them say, you know, your worst fears because ninety nine point nine percent of clients don’t say that. Of course, there’s always the point one percent that can really push you down and make you feel not so good. But what a great what a great idea.

00:32:11:14 – 00:32:38:17

Yeah, I agree. The funny thing is, like, I was even as I was saying that out loud, I was like, how many people really have said that my pricing is ridiculous? Like maybe one or two. I’m sure it’s happened, but it’s most of the time, if it’s too expensive for someone, they’re just like, OK, that’s a little above my budget. But thank you for speaking with me here. Whatever. Or they ghost me. But usually people don’t don’t like, yell at you when you don’t know your prices, right?

00:32:39:07 – 00:33:02:12

Oh yeah. Just like no client ever looks at me and they’re like, oh, you are too young. Kind of going back to that thing or oh how dare you. You don’t have a studio at the time or oh how dare you. You’re too old or you’re too whatever. And it’s kind of like our client saying like oh I weigh too much. I’ll, I’ll do it once I lose this much weight. It’s just it’s so funny how all of that drama mostly comes from our own brain.

00:33:02:19 – 00:33:32:14

It’s so true. Our brains like make up the worst situations and we just need to like find the tools to calm down and kind of reprogram the script in our minds, which like she was value videos have always really helped me. And that’s one of my favorite things about SBE., is not only the very practical information, but the mind set work that she teaches as well. And the money blocks, videos and stuff are invaluable.

00:33:32:27 – 00:33:42:15

Yes, those cell value videos are integral. They are absolutely necessary to watch for really anybody in any business.

00:33:43:01 – 00:34:02:00

Agree. So, Keeley. You said you have a bachelor’s degree, you have education to potentially fall back on. Has there ever been a time where you thought to yourself. This isn’t for me, maybe I shouldn’t be doing this, maybe I should go back towards what my education was for

00:34:02:15 – 00:34:46:21

Sometimes at midnight after I’m dealing with a tricky client or after I have a bad day. Kevin, I do have those thoughts of how much easier would my life be if I just had a nine to five corporate job that, you know, I don’t have to take home with me that I’m never going to really take personally for me. I mean, this is something I’ve been doing for, oh, gosh, like half my life now. And at least and what I’m doing now is something that I’ve really been trying to do in my business over the past few years is really, really hone in on my why and why I’m doing what I’m doing and why I’m photographing who I’m photographing and why I’m doing it and the specific way that I’m doing it.

00:34:46:23 – 00:35:04:11

And I’ve really gotten to a point. I feel so lucky. I’ve really gotten to a point where I just feel so much purpose and so much value in who I’m photographing and why I’m photographing them, that at this point I can’t really imagine doing anything else.

00:35:05:11 – 00:35:17:17

So you said you thought about the nine of five. Do you feel like there was ever anything that while you’re busy building your business, you missed out on learning while from not having worked at a nine to fun?

00:35:18:03 – 00:36:20:13

I actually did. So I worked at a PR agency for about a year, so I started there as an intern and I mean, it was it was fine. I had a good time, but I was always looking forward to the weekends and not because the weekend was when I partied. The weekend was when I worked at the weekend was when I was shooting. The weekend was when I was doing what I loved. And frankly, I was making more on the weekend than I was in that nine to five. So for me, I think that is honestly the most important spot I am in my business right now in the past few years is really just consistently asking myself why? Why am I doing what I’m doing? How can I make this better for my clients? How can I make this more purposeful? How can I make this have the most impact in the most meaning for my clients so that I really feel like I’m stepping and my purpose as a photographer? Because as I’m sure everybody in this audience knows, like it’s it can be so much more than just pretty photos.

00:36:20:15 – 00:36:24:06

The work that we do can have so much impact on people’s lives.

00:36:24:29 – 00:36:59:24

I love that it when Kevin and I were kind of researching for this conversation, we saw that it looked like during covid you, like maybe paused like most of us did and kind of rebranded your business, or at least at some point you rebranded your business from like this colorful kind of photo senior photographer to this more like beauty portrait, black and white, contemporary women’s portraits. Can you talk a little bit about that rebranding? And I feel like that probably ties into your why.

00:36:59:26 – 00:37:11:12

So I’d love to hear just how that process worked for you and how you like how it ties into your why that you’ve honed in on.

00:37:11:21 – 00:37:42:17

Of course. Yeah. I think covid really forced us to kind of stop and reflect on what we’re doing. And right before covid, it was only a few months before a covid when I moved from Indianapolis to San Diego, opened my first studio space and then covid hit. So I really kind of had that double whammy. And so when I moved, I initially launched this campaign called the Bare Campaign, and my goal was to photograph women in kind of a different style.

00:37:42:19 – 00:38:16:29

And I wanted it to be black and white. I wanted it to be very intimate. I wanted it to be not a lot of makeup, not a lot of wardrobe, nothing really focused on the background. I wanted to really challenge myself to step into something that I thought at the time could be really impactful, impactful for me. So definitely that move and definitely covid it kind of forced me to stop and think about, again, why I’m doing what I’m doing and what I want, what I wanted my business to actually give to my clients.

00:38:17:18 – 00:38:55:10

I’m really glad you brought up the Bare campaign, because we did want to ask you about it just because so many guests have come on our clubhouse chats and talked about their forty over 40 or 50 over fifty campaign, which I think are kind of like that. Amazing go to campaigns that a lot of us to be photographers have been implementing. But your campaign is obviously not that it’s something different. And I was wondering both if you could explain a little bit about what’s included, how you price it, how it’s going for you, and also like why why that and not like a 40 over 40.

00:38:55:12 – 00:38:56:10

Or 50, over 50.

00:38:56:27 – 00:39:33:00

Absolutely. So, yeah, there’s a ton of 40 over 40, 50, over 50 and those are awesome for me as a twenty three year old, I just you know, I’m not going to connect with that as much and well, probably half of my clients are over 50. I do work a lot with older women that just didn’t really align with my purpose. And I’m pretty I’m pretty vocal about this in my own business. But as a woman who has struggled with body image, self-worth and eating disorders and a lot of that kind of stuff, that’s what I really wanted to hone in on.

00:39:33:02 – 00:40:07:17

And those are the kind of people that I want to serve is not necessarily because of age, but because of how we feel about our bodies and how we feel about ourselves. So I really want to instill in my own business, although I’m not doing that campaign anymore, I really want to hone in on how can I create a safe space for women who don’t love the way they look as most women do. I’ve never had a client. I’ve never had a client. I’m not sure about you, Ashleigh. I’ve never had a client walk in to my studio and be like, I’m not nervous at all.

00:40:07:19 – 00:40:33:15

I’m very photogenic. I know exactly how to pose. I don’t need to lose any weight. I got this. You know, we all have our own self-doubts. And so my goal with that campaign was just to create kind of an initiative, especially after I was moving to also get more clients, but kind of an initiative to create that space, to allow women to come in and be photographed in that way.

00:40:34:06 – 00:40:55:27

So can you just explain, like, what the base package of the campaign was? It seemed like when I looked it up on your website, it didn’t include hair and makeup, which maybe tracks with what you’re saying about not wanting it to be overly made up. So, yeah, I’d love to just hear that the actual details of a campaign that’s different than that 40 over 40, of course.

00:40:55:29 – 00:41:28:27

So my my non-refundable retainer was one ninety five. And again, that did not include hair and makeup also for covid reasons and moving. I didn’t really know any hair and makeup artist, so just trying to keep it as simple as possible for me to. So it did not include hair and makeup, it did include one print. So I would give them a matted print from Graphi studio as a complimentary print for the campaign. I did start doing same day reveals for the campaign, which was new for me, absolutely loved them.

00:41:29:05 – 00:42:02:13

So I would shoot for about two hours. We would have a little thirty minute lunch break, I would have snacks and drinks. And I always ask little side note, I always do send a questionnaire before my photos shoot. I ask them things like When’s your birthday, what’s your favorite snacks? I’ll have their favorite snack ready for them. So we’ll have our little lunch break while you upload the photos to my computer. We’ll sit down, pick out your favorites. All of my clients so far have ordered more so all forty women for the campaign have purchased more than just the one photo knock on wood.

00:42:03:14 – 00:42:14:09

But it really was just a kick for my business in terms of moving and getting more visibility, but also for me to really hone in on my why and into my purpose.

00:42:14:25 – 00:42:29:19

I love that. And so then did they get like if they didn’t take the one print, did they get a print credit? So not like if they didn’t take it, but meaning if they wanted more, did you just apply that one print as like a print credit or how did you like do the up sell.

00:42:29:26 – 00:43:05:24

So I would apply the one ninety five towards any collection. So my collection started at twenty four hundred. So most of my clients for the campaign did end up choosing a collection. So they started twenty four hundred at my highest price at six thousand. And again of course they have upgrades and add ons available but that, that’s how I priced it if that makes sense. So It’s the one ninety five non-refundable retainer. Just to recap here, when and if I’m not non-refundable retainer for a two hour photo shoot, no hair and makeup and then they come in same day, reveal right after their photo shoot and then choose their order from there

00:43:06:06 – 00:43:10:13

and what’s included in that twenty four hundred dollar package. Starter package.

00:43:10:22 – 00:43:44:29

Oh OK. So in that twenty four hundred package I have a ten image folio box and a sixteen by twenty four piece of wall art. So if you kind of look at my packages and I wish I could just send this to you so you could see it. If you look at my packages, how I have it laid out is my smallest package starts at the ten images with the smallest piece of wall art, and then it just kind of goes up from there. So I have four main collections. Again, my smallest one is based at is priced at twenty four hundred and my largest one is priced at six thousand.

00:43:45:08 – 00:44:01:26

And then through each step it just kind of goes up in the number of printed images and the size of the wall art. And then my very top collection also includes all of. The digital files, so essentially they would be receiving all 60 to 80 files that I show at the reveal.

00:44:02:11 – 00:44:24:05

I love that. I love that you have more images because a lot of people on this clubhouse chat have been talking about not showing like twenty five images, but showing like 60 to 80 like you’re talking about. And they have those kind of higher prices. So that really tracks with what other members of SBE have been saying has really worked for them.

00:44:24:22 – 00:44:29:26

So Keeley normally when someone has does one of these types of campaigns at the end of it, they usually have

00:44:31:15 – 00:44:41:04

either a magazine or a gallery where they go off and they have a party to show off all the images. Was there anything like that for your for the bare campaign?

00:44:41:16 – 00:45:12:00

No. So I am wrapping up my last clients for the Bare campaign next month, and actually I think I have a couple more left for October. I am booking a few months out, so I’m no longer booking clients for it. But I do have a few more left. And then after the campaign, what I’m planning to do, Kevin, is I’m going to put together a little magazine. So I’ve had every client for the campaign choose their favorite photo, which is normally the one they select for their free complimentary print. So they’re choosing their favorite photo.

00:45:12:02 – 00:45:46:18

And I asked them to choose the one that they feel most represents them. And then I also send them a pretty long questionnaire after the photo shoot that asked them that asks them questions like what does beauty mean to you? How has this experience shifted, you know, your self-worth and your own image. And that’s been really great for testimonials. I will highly recommend that I always send a possession questionnaire. But what I’m doing for the campaign is putting together a magazine. So a physical book of everybody’s image next to their quote, next to their story.

00:45:47:18 – 00:45:53:11

By any chance, use any of the information from questionnaire to go alongside of their magazine?

00:45:54:06 – 00:46:35:19

Yes, absolutely. So the questionnaire that I specifically have laid out for the campaign is meant for that. But I do send a questionnaire as well to all of my standard clients as well. And that’s something that I highly recommend doing. Something that I didn’t start out doing, but I feel like has been really valuable for me is sending that post photo shoot questionnaire where I asked them about their experience. I asked them how this affected their confidence. I ask them for any suggestions. And that’s really helped me to level up my business because I do I have gotten some really good suggestions, but also get really, really, really good testimonials that I can share and use for marketing purposes.

00:46:37:05 – 00:47:01:17

How did you decide how to cap the bare campaign, because obviously 40 over 40 is pretty obvious, you only have 40 spots, but a bare campaign seems like you could have whatever amount you wanted to. So was it just like you feel like you feel complete? Did you have a number set at the beginning to kind of create scarcity and limited spots for it? How did you plan that out?

00:47:01:29 – 00:47:38:00

So I did set a number to get to 40, but it really just kind of coincided. I do feel like I’m at a point now in my business where my business has kind of become the campaign because, again, I kind of launched this campaign not only to market myself in a new city, but also just to see if this is something that I would want to be doing long term. And it really is, like I talked about earlier, over the past few years, just kind of revolving everything around what is my why it’s really helped me narrow down into that niche and realize, OK, this is exactly what I want to be doing full time.

00:47:38:21 – 00:47:55:21

And the other question I had is, how did you get the word out? Because you said it’s a new city about this campaign. So did you run a Facebook ad? Was it word of mouth, a VIP group? But if you did do a VIP group, how did you get that started in a new city?

00:47:56:12 – 00:48:27:12

All of the above. So primarily the beginning for me, it was Facebook ads. So I was running Facebook ads and then retargeting my client so I would have them join. I did start a private Facebook group, which I found to be really valuable over the past year. And then I do have like a referral system set up in place. So after their photo shoot, I give them incentives to refer their friends and especially for the campaign saying, OK, there’s only ten more spots left. Of course, I loved photographing you.

00:48:27:14 – 00:48:37:19

I would love to photograph your friends as well. And then just kind of giving them my clients that initiative to refer me out to their friends. So all of the above.

00:48:38:05 – 00:48:53:23

So with the Facebook ad, did you just target people who’d been to your website or did you also run like what would be called like a cold audience, meaning like you look at your geographic area and like the demographics and you just ran that that.

00:48:54:03 – 00:49:31:23

Correct. So I started out doing it to a cold audience. So I’m going to get a little nerdy here. But yes, I started out doing it to a cold audience and I targeted that pretty down. So if anybody here is running Facebook ads right now, something that was really valuable for me, at least in my area, was not just targeting San Diego is like a whole county, because if you’re not familiar, it’s like it’s a massive county. But I would target specific neighborhoods and then including things like their interest and even excluding things in that targeting, you can really, really get pretty detailed in that Facebook targeting.

00:49:31:25 – 00:49:41:06

But that’s at least what I found for me has created a lot of success, is really, again, really niching down into that actual Facebook nitty gritty targeting.

00:49:41:23 – 00:50:03:01

So being in a new city, when you when you launched and you start doing Facebook ads, what was your reaction to it? We’ve had some figures that said as soon as they launch it, boom, instantly getting flooded or we’ve also had where it takes a little bit of time to build up. What was your response in a new city doing the Facebook ads afterwards?

00:50:03:07 – 00:50:38:06

I think for me, the Facebook ads worked really well to start and now over. I’ve been here for almost two years now. Now I’m trying to transition my business and I really look at where my leads are coming in. I’m trying to transition my business to be more referral based. So I’m not just spending ad dollars. So right now it’s been pretty fifty fifty for me from organic leads versus advertising or paid leads. But at the start it was one hundred percent paid lead. So I was running those Facebook ads pretty hard and at the time they worked really well for me.

00:50:38:08 – 00:50:55:29

So they did allow me to book out my calendar obviously before covid hit, and then we were shut down for a long time. And then after I started running those Facebook ads again to really get me back up and running, and they allowed me to book a few months out after we were allowed to reopen. So that that worked pretty well for me.

00:50:56:15 – 00:51:05:00

So if you you’re focusing more on referrals or do you have anything set up like a referral program that you’re you’re sending out to your clients?

00:51:05:04 – 00:51:36:06

Yes, absolutely. So after their photo shoot, I give them an actual printed card. And the way that I have my referral system set up is that it’s one hundred dollar card that my client can use for any friends. So any time they have a friend book with me and I do have a whole section in my contact form that ask them if they had anybody refer them. So any time one of their friends books a photo shoot, the friend gets one hundred dollars off their order and.

00:51:36:08 – 00:52:00:05

So does the original client off the future order? So I actually have had one client refer five friends who have booked their photo shoot so that client essentially gets five hundred dollars off her next photo shoot, which she’s planning to do next year. So kind of letting them add that up, because for me, out of thirty five hundred dollars average, that one hundred dollars is definitely worth it.

00:52:01:11 – 00:52:18:24

So we are getting close a little bit to the one hour mark. So I want to go ahead and ask you if you kind of like closing questions, OK? So. One, what is the what advice would you give to your younger self about starting your business?

00:52:19:06 – 00:52:47:19

Oh, I think to two main things. One, be willing to be uncomfortable again, being willing to feel that nausea, being willing to feel that second, as being willing to feel that guilt and shame and then just pushing through it. And then, number two, just focusing on my purpose and also how can I blow my clients away? How can I give them the most value and how can I give them the best experience possible?

00:52:48:17 – 00:53:03:19

So obviously, you’re building your business, you’re looking for things to give your clients, to give them the best experience possible. What is the most recent thing that you realize that would help me in my business to bring that value to?

00:53:04:12 – 00:53:40:21

I think just a lot of little things, Kevin. So little things like the questionnaire, you know, asking them when their birthday is and then on their birthday, I send them I send them a text with one of my favorite photos, Happy Birthday. And then asking them, like, what’s your favorite snack and having that exact snack ready for them. Like my most recent client was the dark chocolate, salted caramel Ghirardelli Square. So, you know, I when I pick those up and I had those ready for her, I still deliver my albums. I give them the opportunity or the option to have me hand deliver their albums or their wall art to their home.

00:53:41:00 – 00:53:58:09

So just really thinking through. And again, that questionnaire really, really helps me on this, but really thinking through how can I give them the best possible experience? How can I make this as easy for them? Things like automation’s, how can I make this as easy for them, as simple for them, as best for them.

00:53:59:18 – 00:54:08:07

Very nice. And what advice would you give to a young individual that might look to start their own photography business?

00:54:08:17 – 00:54:33:09

Just do it, you know, just go into it. Head first again, be willing to feel uncomfortable. And again, nobody, nobody else really cares about your age. And that that goes for anybody. Not none of your clients really care about your age. They don’t care about if you have a studio or not. They don’t care what your current average is. All they care about is how you make them feel.

00:54:34:08 – 00:54:50:12

OK, and when starting a photography business for a younger person, where would you who might not have a lot of work experience? Where would you say they should focus their energy when building their brand?

00:54:51:17 – 00:55:14:24

I think, again, I think step one is running your numbers, looking future forward, what do you want to be saving? What do you want to be doing one year, two years, five years from now? So thinking out into the future instead of just where you are right now is going to be very valuable. And again, just focusing on that client experience and then just building that up over time.

00:55:16:02 – 00:55:35:14

Wonderful, wonderful, beautiful pieces of advice. Well, we have reached the one hour mark, and Keeley has been an absolute pleasure to have you with us today. So since we are closing out, I want to go ahead and give you the opportunity to go ahead and give us your Sociales so people know where to find you.

00:55:36:03 – 00:55:56:09

Thanks so much for having me. So you can find me on Instagram at Keeley and that’s k e e l e y Miller M I l l e r portrait’s. I’m also Keeley Miller dot com. If you have any questions for me, you can just reach me right through there. Keeley Miller dot com.

00:55:57:00 – 00:56:33:11

Fantastic. Everyone, please go follow Keeley and make sure to follow her on Instagram as well as on Facebook. You can also go ahead and check out the blog posts that are associated with our clubhouse interviews at SuebryceEducation.com forward slash blog. And if you are a member of SueB ryce education and you have any more questions for Ashleigh or myself, go tag us in a post in the SBE members only Facebook group. If you’re not a member of Sue Bryce Education, and you are interested in learning more about how it can help your business succeed email Ella at support@SueBryceEducation.com

00:56:33:13 – 00:56:36:26

Thank you again for joining us and we hope you can join us next week.

00:56:38:07 – 00:56:39:08

Thanks, Keeley.

00:56:39:10 – 00:56:39:28

Thank you.

00:56:40:20 – 00:56:44:01

Thank you much. Everyone have a fantastic day.

Thanks again for listening today. And don’t forget, you can listen to either me or our special guests every Friday on Club House at 11:00 a.m. Pacific. Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System Podcast. Your five-star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So, if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to SueBryceEducation.com, where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1,000 on-demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business, and self-value. 

There’s also the 90 Day Startup Challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to-do checklists for your business, lighting PDFs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that’s SueBryceEducation.com.