FULL TRANSCRIPT: Please note this transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors. 

00:00:01:04 – 00:00:36:16

This is the Portrait System podcast, a show that helps portrait photographers and people hoping to become one, navigate the world of photography, business, money and so much more. We totally keep it real. We share stories about the incredible ups and the very difficult downs when running a photography business. I’m your host, Nikki Closser. And the point of this podcast is for you to learn actionable steps that you can take to grow your own business and also to feel inspired and empowered by the stories you hear.

Hey, everyone, welcome back. This week’s Clubhouse, a special edition episode, is with your hosts Kevin and Ashleigh, and their guest is Angi Lewis.

00:00:36:24 – 00:00:38:04

Angi is back to talk

00:00:38:06 – 00:00:42:07

about personal branding, how she markets to her personal branding clients,

00:00:42:14 – 00:00:53:11

how she interacts with them, and more. There’s always great questions. It’s such a fun episode to listen to, especially if you’re interested in personal branding. So let’s get started with Kevin, Ashleigh and Angi.

00:00:54:13 – 00:01:24:09

Welcome everyone to the Portrait System Podcast Clubhouse Edition. My name is Kevin Conde, and I’m here with my co-host Ashleigh Taylor. If you are not familiar with the Portrait System, we are a portrait photography podcast that is powered by Sue Bryce Education. Nikki Closser hosts our Monday episodes and Ashleigh and I co-host our Clubhouse Edition, which is live here on the Clubhouse app every Friday at Noon Pacific, and then our episodes are released on Thursdays. You can tune in on your favorite podcast app by searching for the Portrait System.

Ashleigh, how are you doing today?

00:01:25:03 – 00:02:03:26

I’m doing great, Kevin. I’m always excited to be here, and I’m excited to introduce Angi Lewis to everyone, and she is a Houston, Texas based portrait photographer. So welcome, Angi. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Happy Friday. Before we get started, I always like to let our live listeners know that for the first 30 minutes of the interview, Kevin and I will go ahead and interview Angi. And then at that halfway point, we do open it up to audience questions and we do love when you guys interact and engage and ask questions with us.

00:02:04:05 – 00:02:22:08

So if you think of a question too early jot it down, so you don’t forget. And when it’s time to ask a question, you’ll just do that by hitting the hand icon in the lower right hand part of your screen. And then we will be able to bring you up on stage so you can ask your question.

00:02:23:19 – 00:02:27:05

Perfect. Thank you, Ashleigh. Welcome to the podcast, Angi.

00:02:27:19 – 00:02:29:05

Thank you. I appreciate guys having me.

00:02:30:00 – 00:02:54:12

So there’s been a bit of conversation about personal branding within the SBE members group. We just had Nikki Closser release of fantastic personal branding course on the Portrait Masters store. So we wanted to continue the conversation with you and chat about what makes personal branding such a game changing and lucrative services for photographers to offer. So how long have you been specializing in personal branding?

00:02:55:06 – 00:03:35:06

Gosh. Well, kind of. Since I started it, or maybe a couple of years into my business, I started doing portraits first, of course, but I came from a corporate background. I worked in H.R. recruitment for the best part of about 20 years, so headshots just in personal branding kind of came naturally to me, and I really enjoyed doing it, and I felt like I could really connect with people that needed those type of images. So it’s the funny thing is, now it’s probably the lion’s share of what I’m photographing. Would you say that most of your clients are corporate clients or do you get a lot of like solopreneurs, coaches, fitness people? Like what is the type of

00:03:36:26 – 00:04:02:12

what is the type of business that’s typically coming to you for a branding shoot? Sure, that’s a great question. I do get a lot of solopreneurs and small businesses. And then, of course, some bigger companies that need on location work. But yeah, I would say probably a good seventy five percent are either independent business owners or people that work with a small firm and yet a lot of real estate agents, for example. So that’s something that we see a lot here in Houston.

00:04:03:23 – 00:04:18:22

Twenty years in in each arc, I guess that really does make you comfortable within this realm of photography and the people that you have coming in. Can you give us a bit of a breakdown of your packages for your personal branding?

00:04:19:06 – 00:04:49:28

Sure. So I have two the the most popular one is the what I call a personal branding package, and it’s one that’s really kind of an all inclusive. It’s styled for people that need more than just a couple of headshots of it’s for someone who needs, you know, anywhere from 15 or 20 images, sometimes more. It’s multiple wardrobe changes. We do them either in the studio or on location, but a lot of those are in studio, but they include hair and makeup. We do a styling appointment over Zoom with them.

00:04:50:00 – 00:05:20:13

We do wardrobe consultation. We talk a little bit through there, must have images and what they’re looking for. We look at some reference images, things like that, and talk about branding colors and all that can. Units that go into customizing that for them, and so that’s that’s kind of the most popular one that we shoot and it’s it’s very customized. I think a lot of people really like that. And it does include an image credit. And then we do a reveal or an appointment over Zoom with them for that. And then of course, new editing is included as well.

00:05:20:15 – 00:05:50:27

So that’s that’s kind of the most popular package and what most people book. And then once a month, I do what I call a head shot many. And that’s just perfect for someone who needs one or two images and, you know, updating their LinkedIn profile or their companies like, Hey, we’re we need an email signature updated image that kind be. And so we should point a few people on the same day, but we only do those once a month. So those people, like I said, usually prefer that the personal branding package, just because it’s it’s very hands on and there’s a lot involved with that with both packages.

00:05:50:29 – 00:06:20:28

Are they just getting digital images or do you also encourage ordering of prints or how do you handle that? It’s mainly just digital now with the personal branding package. Sometimes they’ll want to parlay in a personal portrait with that, or we have clients that want to bring their dogs in the studio. And so usually we do a couple of personal portraits in conjunction with the personal branding shoot. I’ll just give them a couple of prints that go along with that. I use graphi studio either. You guys are very familiar with them.

00:06:21:00 – 00:06:41:28

I know that I love their fine art prints, so it’s just kind of a nice little added touch to be able just to say, Hey, you know what? We took these couple of portraits. I’m just, you’re getting the digital anyway, but I’m going to try and gift you some of these prints as well, and they just like that. That’s awesome. And Graphi does have the most beautiful trends ever, for sure.

00:06:43:24 – 00:07:18:18

So can you just let us know what the price or the price range is and your average sale for those personal branding packages? And I’d love to know pricing for the Minis as well. Yeah, absolutely. So the personal training session fee is 12 90 plus tax, and that includes a $500 image credit. So my images are two hundred and fifty each. So obviously they would get two images with that image credit. But ninety nine percent of my clients fall in love with more than just two images. And especially if they’re spending a couple of hours with us new studio and doing multiple wardrobe changes, you know they’re going to want to need more than to you.

00:07:18:26 – 00:07:52:04

So I always let my clients know that, hey, you can actually take your $500 credit then and apply that toward an image collection. And that’s what the majority of people do. So the image is quite an image collection started eight images for fourteen ninety and then a 16 image collections 28 90 and then a twenty five image collection is thirty six ninety. So they’re incentivized to purchase more because they’re less per image when they when they bundle those that way. It’s a most of my clients are really very few take eight. Most will buy either a sixteen or twenty five image collection.

00:07:52:13 – 00:08:25:17

So for those sections, my average is usually around four thousand. And then but you know, it’s worth it because we’re spending the day in the studio with them. We start about 10 o’clock hair and makeup is the first hour, and then we wrap it about three or so give or take depending on how long it takes for the shoot and how many wardrobe changes that we do. So we’re really dedicating that day to them in the studio. So those are the kind of the lion’s share of what we shoot. And then once a month I do. I photograph headshot minis. And so the session fee for that is 490 plus tax that comes with two images.

00:08:26:02 – 00:08:56:24

They do get hair and makeup with that as well. It’s a very condensed version. We don’t set up furniture pieces and style things. It’s it’s very. And we’re shooting on scene with paper backdrops and it’s usually quarter crops, that kind of thing. And they get two images with that and additional images are one night each. If they do that. And then I also kind of incentivized them to buy more. So I’ll do kind of a buy two get one free option. And most people for the headshot minis will usually wind up between purchasing between five and eight images in total. That’s awesome.

00:08:56:26 – 00:09:27:05

So if you’re including makeup in the hair and makeup in the headshot mini is because in my mind, when I hear many years, I always think like it’s a 20 minute session, a 30 minute session. But I’m guessing with hair and makeup, it’s not that. So how many people can you get in one day? Usually four or five is kind of my next. Any more than that, and I’m a little worn it just, yeah, I’m taxing just to shoot, you know, a lot, and I like to give my clients a little bit more of a personal touch.

00:09:27:07 – 00:09:59:18

So I don’t want it to feel like lather, rinse, repeat. But usually about four to five people is what we usually book for those. And is the hair makeup like a full hair makeup? Or is it just a shorter hair and makeup? It’s usually full hair and makeup. My hair and makeup artist is amazing, and she’s within an hour. Usually she’s she’s ready to go. So I’m so jealous of all these people who are like hair makeup artists that get it done in an hour or an hour and a half with like every single person I’ve worked with, maybe an hour, 15 minute.

00:09:59:25 – 00:10:29:27

If I’m lucky, one thing that I’ve found that really helps Ashleigh is is I have a styling guide and a wardrobe guide and a beauty guide that we give to our clients, and it helps to prep them for the session. So they’re told to come in with clean, dry hair, no makeup. So that way they’re ready to go. We let them know, Hey, you know, make sure you put your phone on silent because we really want you to enjoy your experience. So we try and minimize the things that could extend the session in a negative way, if that makes sense.

00:10:30:06 – 00:11:02:10

But as far as hair makeup goes, she she does an amazing job and everybody she does the strip lashes as well, which all the women don’t go crazy over those. Yeah. So it’s it’s a very efficient system. Yeah, that’s awesome. And I love that you mentioned that you send out a prep guide. I also always prep my clients on how to prepare. I think that’s so important because, you know, when people don’t walk in feeling prepared, they’re already kind of feeling more stressed out and not confident.

00:11:02:12 – 00:11:24:12

And that’s definitely not the space that anyone wants their clients to be in when they walk through the doors of our studio. Exactly. Yeah. And we go so far as to ask them what their favorite music is. So we play their favorite type of music in the studio and we have coffee and we keep bottles of prosecco and things like that that just kind of give that little extra touch so that people feel a little bit more comfortable.

00:11:25:05 – 00:11:29:03

So anyway, I want to ask you, you said you go on location for people shoots.

00:11:31:05 – 00:11:51:00

When you’re doing that, are you going to their business space or is this something where you’re having to location scout to potentially fill the fill their needs? OK, this is what they want. I need to go find this type of backdrop around in the city. Or do you have places that you already have in your mind where this type of image would be fantastic or how does that work?

00:11:51:10 – 00:12:14:00

Sure, that’s an excellent question to you. So ninety nine percent of the time, it’s usually in their place of business, and most of my clients, if they want something on occasion, it’s because they have a large staff and it’s just easier for us to come to them. Or it might be a business owner who has a great office. They’ve just remodeled and they really want to show it off and have photographs done in their office space.

00:12:15:04 – 00:12:36:01

So when you’re going to their spot and you have a personal branding shoot, is this an instance where are you including like product shoots for them as well? The entire space, potentially for the website, so people can see what the business location looks like? Or is it just strictly their portraits and it just happens to have the office space in the background?

00:12:36:17 – 00:13:11:23

Yeah, that’s another good question. It’s a mix of both. I don’t really do a lot of product photography, although we are sort of branching into that a little bit. But it does include, you know, headshots for them on site, as well as any personal branding or lifestyle images that they would want around the office. In fact, this morning I just wrapped up some edits for an engineering firm that we photographed recently where we photographed. I want to say it was about 40 individuals there in their office, and then we styled and kind of set up some very casual looking things where people were interacting with each other in a conference room and things like that for them to use in their marketing.

00:13:12:25 – 00:13:50:05

When you go on location to these offices and you’re doing shots like that, especially like lifestyle shots, is that adding any extra fee to your packages or a travel fee? Or is it just that you know that they’re going to end up probably buying your top package because they’re going to have so many more images to choose from? These are a little trickier because there’s so many different variables that come into play when we’re quoting for them. So what I really do is I get as much information with them during that discovery call, and then I basically provide them with a custom quote, and I usually let them know it’s a flat rate.

00:13:50:07 – 00:14:20:05

And here’s what here’s what it includes because I don’t want clients to feel like we’re going to turn around a nickel and dime them for things. I’m a firm believer in being easy to work with, so I love giving a flat rate. But it is customizable depending on how many people we have to photograph if they need hair and makeup touch ups. If we do have to travel, I know the client that I mentioned earlier. They also have a Dallas location and we might be going there in January. So obviously that one would be a higher rate than, you know, to to be able to travel because it’s a four hour drive to get to Dallas from Houston.

00:14:20:19 – 00:14:53:10

So it really just depends on everything that they need, but we really customize it. And then when I always do is I price and grit with an amount per person at that point. So then it doesn’t sound so overwhelming when we’re like, Hey, this is an eight thousand dollar session, but based on how many people you have, it’s only, you know, this much per person. And so people, typically that usually works very well for clients. I love that you mentioned the price increase because I think that does like psychologically make a huge difference with people in understanding the value that they’re getting.

00:14:53:12 – 00:15:35:08

Because, yeah, like a big number like eight thousand dollars might sound like, whoa. But when you’re like, well, you have a ton of employees and this is all the stuff we’re doing and you itemize it out, it just creates that value for people a lot more. Exactly, exactly. And the other thing that I think really helps that that we do that really helps to set us apart is when we can move, I’ll shoot tethered into my laptop on location. And so it gives clients a chance to see their headshot right then in there. And that way you don’t have a situation where you photograph 40 people and then you’ve got five Zoom coming back and going, Well, did you did you take any more shots? Can I see those? So it really helps to make that process of selection really efficient as well.

00:15:36:00 – 00:16:14:16

I love that tip as well. That’s really helpful. So one thing that I notice a lot in our members only for Sue Bryce education group, is that when a photographer gets presented with these kind of jobs that are not in their typical pricing packages, it can really trip them up and really get them stuck on like what to charge and how to figure this out and what’s fair and it’s like almost puts people in like paralysis mode of not getting a quote out in time or just a lot of fear.

00:16:14:21 – 00:16:47:06

So could you talk a little bit about how what systems you have to make it easy for yourself to make these quotes and how you are able to do it in a way that doesn’t like just shut everything down in your business? Freak out while you’re trying to develop a quote for someone that’s customized? Sure. Yeah, I think really kind of going back to the initial discovery call with the client is so important because you can’t provide a solution until you know what they need. So someone might need something really unique.

00:16:47:08 – 00:17:22:21

And if we’re able to do that, hair makeup touch ups is a great example, and we really just do that as an add on for them. They don’t have to do it, but if they want it, here’s what it costs. So I really just kind of look at the information from that perspective, but it’s asking the right questions, knowing what they’re looking for and then also really calculating what my day rate is, what I really want to make per day. And then also calculating in how many people we’re going to photograph if it’s five hundred people can’t really do that in a day, obviously, that would need to be broken up in two separate days.

00:17:23:00 – 00:17:57:08

If there is travel, that obviously is included has to be calculated into figuring that out. But it’s really it can feel very overwhelming at first. But I think as long as you know, OK, here’s what my time is worth. Here’s what my day rate needs to be. What is what can I realistically, how many people can I realistically photograph within this time period? And then just really being the subject matter expert for your client to say, you know, kind of setting those realistic expectations if they want a lot of different shots around the office that does take some time to set up in style.

00:17:57:21 – 00:18:02:24

So building that into the time frame is really important and letting them know that.

00:18:03:20 – 00:18:31:04

So Angi, I want to go back a little bit to the discussion of the discovery call. So you have a client that potentially calls you and. What if they don’t necessarily have the answer of what exactly they want, what they would want to potentially leave it up to you? Do you ever go in and do any form of research on their brand, their, you know, business themselves, even to kind of customize what you can provide for them?

00:18:32:00 – 00:19:03:22

Sure. Yeah. In fact, what I usually will do and I kind of learn this trick from my recruitment days is a bit of a sleuth. And so I’ll jump on the internet and pull up their website trying to find out as much as I can about them. And quite often to a lot of people, if they’re starting out, real estate agents are a great example. Sometimes they’re just getting into the field and the first thing they realize that they need are headshots because they need that visual content to go ahead and get their business cards, get their listing signs together, get their HDR profiles set up, know all the things that you need to do when you’re starting a business.

00:19:04:06 – 00:19:44:09

And sometimes they don’t know what they need. So one thing that I have put together for them and I have amazing marketing person that I partner with and we collaborate on things quite a bit, and she’s helped me immensely with my digital marketing. But we come up with that kind of a marketing resource guide for that. And so that’s something if someone books a personal training session, they get that as well. And it’s just a bit of a guide to help them figure out, OK, now I have these images, what can I do with them? So it’s helping them, kind of. Go down the path in the right way and kind of again, you’re being more of a photographer to them when you’re able to provide them with resources and information that can help their business.

00:19:45:17 – 00:19:51:11

OK, so what do you say, what can they potentially use it for if you know, if you’re trying to sell it to them?

00:19:52:06 – 00:20:22:21

Sure. I think it depends on the industry, but you know, real estate, for example, you know, gosh, there’s just unlimited places where they can use their images. Facebook social media Tik-Tok is a big one now that a lot of people are using for their branding. Definitely their website, email signatures, videos are embedding some images and videos and things like that. Yeah, it’s that we live in a more visual world now than I think we ever have in terms of business and in having that personal branded image is so much more important than I think it ever has been.

00:20:23:13 – 00:20:36:29

Definitely. So while you’re on the shoot, are you potentially thinking about, OK, this particular composition, this image do you shoot for what they could potentially need for their business?

00:20:38:06 – 00:21:14:14

Yeah. So it’s a little bit of both, obviously go in with a plan. I’m very OCD and organized, and I love having that game plan in place that makes me feel more confident going into a session now. OK, here’s what I have to execute and capture for them. But then I also let that creative process take over anything. Oh gosh. Well, you know, the client I mentioned earlier, the engineering firm, they had a coffee mug in the conference room that had their logo on it. And so I just kind of a really up close shot of the coffee mug where you could still see it within the conference room. And I thought, that’s kind of helping them in a way create their own Adobe stock imagery for them to use in their marketing.

00:21:14:16 – 00:21:49:02

So I do try and guide them a little bit through that, too, and especially if we’re on location and we see something I’ll make a suggestion. And quite often they’re like, Oh yeah, I never even thought about that. That would be great to do when you do the reveal with a client. I’m thinking more of, like, not something that had a flat rate, but just where you’re doing an actual reveals. I know with like portraits, we’re always trying to explain like, Oh, this particular image would be like great on the wall. Or this would look great in an album as like a series on a layout or something.

00:21:49:04 – 00:22:19:02

So are you kind of doing a similar thing with the branding portraits where you’re like, Oh my gosh, like, this one is such a great LinkedIn profile, but this one screams Instagram like, are you kind of selling the photos that way? Or how do you or do you just let the photos speak for themselves and you’re just really quiet? Or how do you walk people through the reveal process? Yeah, that’s another great question. I absolutely do that. In fact, I love shooting on seamless papers because you can expand them and stretch them so easily in Photoshop.

00:22:19:13 – 00:22:52:03

And so I love creating multiple crops, and I’ll show people, even when I’m doing my reveals, I did through capture one, but I’ll just grab my crop tool work and show them, Hey, look, if you offset this, this is an awesome space for negative or negative space where you can overlay copy. And then I will tell you about certain apps where they can hop in and grab your text and have something really easy to put out there. And I think once they realized sometimes how easy it is to do that, they’re not too intimidated to do that and you actually see their marketing grow because they’re using their images more.

00:22:52:14 – 00:23:01:27

But yeah, absolutely. I’m letting them know, Hey, I remember you said you needed this wide image for your website home page. This would be a great contender for that.

00:23:03:18 – 00:23:35:20

I love that I think that’s so powerful, and I think it really goes back to sometimes people get stuck with selling like personal branding, but it’s really the same as selling, you know, a wall portrait. You just need to think about it in terms of what the client is going to need. But it’s ultimately the same process, basically. Exactly. And a lot of times, too, the other thing that we do now is I don’t know what the real term is. We call them extractions where we go in Photoshop and remove them from the backdrop.

00:23:35:22 – 00:24:09:10

And then that way they can overlay that onto a different backdrop image. Real estate agents love that because, you know they love to be in front of listing that they have. And so those are some services that we offer an to your options that we can offer when we’re doing the editing and people are like, Oh my gosh, I never even thought about that. And so again, you’re helping them use their content more, which you’re adding value. You do it that way, too. Yeah, it’s funny. You brought that up because I actually photographed an entire law firm in my town and it’s like a corporate law firm.

00:24:09:12 – 00:24:29:23

So there were corporate requirements on the images and one of them that the background be removed and they, like, definitely dropped the lawyers in on different backgrounds. And it’s just funny because I see my image pop up a lot, but it’s always on in the background. And I mean, I love that they’re using it. It’s just funny because I’m like, I took that photo, but it was not like that

00:24:29:25 – 00:24:30:12

That looks familiar.

00:24:31:23 – 00:24:33:06

I know exactly,

00:24:34:22 – 00:25:05:00

but it’s really it’s actually like a really cool service. And I was able to in the quote, just like you said it when I found out that that’s one of the things they needed, I was able to like tack on an additional per image per person B for all the like, I call it transparent background like the file, but I want to call it. All right. Yeah. And it just made the quote a lot more profitable as well to be able to do that, right? Yeah, I I think that’s a great idea.

00:25:05:02 – 00:25:21:29

I have an attorney that we photographed several months ago, and she completely blew up Instagram with those. And it’s funny because I’ll hop on it and look at her information and it’s like, Oh yeah, I took that. When I look how she she gives me ideas because she’s been so creative with how she’s gone in and used those. So it’s really cool to see that.

00:25:23:01 – 00:26:05:29

So normally, a business branding shoots from what I’ve seen are usually less expensive than say the full shoot. But your seems to be fairly well priced and lucrative as well. Is there ever an instance where you ever think you know what? They don’t? You know they want more. They want, you know, more beauty shots, more something a little bit less than a little bit more than branding. So do you ever try to upsell them into a different full blown package that you might having like a beauty packages? Or do you just strictly try to keep it as personal branding and then potentially sell them on a different shoot at a different time? Yes.

00:26:06:27 – 00:26:42:11

Yeah, that’s interesting. For me, the personal branding is we’re personalizing it. So we had a group of women come in that, believe it or not, run an assisted living facility in the Woodlands here in Houston. And they wanted something with a very Kardashian feel to it. So we just kind of gave it that vibe and made it a little bit less stuffy and more fashion, so to speak, because that’s what they wanted. So we were really customizing that. But you know, the branding that the pricing really is very comparable to what our portrait pricing is.

00:26:42:23 – 00:27:13:14

The session fee is also twelve ninety. There’s also a five hundred dollar print credit. So I like it set up like that because I feel like it’s just a little bit easier transition simply because we do get a lot of clients that come in for headshots and personal branding that wind up hiring us for portrait sessions as well. And they don’t necessarily do them at the same time, sometimes because they might have someone in their family that they want to be included. Or they may not have time that day, especially if they’re with a group of people, but they do sometimes transition open into additional sessions down the line.

00:27:13:16 – 00:27:43:25

So I personally just really like keeping that pricing very similar because I think it just makes it less convoluted. But yeah, I guess to answer your original question, we really just customize them based on what they need. So I love that Angi and I actually do the exact same thing. My packages for personal branding and for just like a portrait shoot, whether it’s boudoir or glam or mother daughter or whatever, it’s actually all the same sitting fee and packages.

00:27:43:27 – 00:28:15:29

The only thing that’s different is that in the branding package, they get a few more images because it’s just digital and in the like, you know, personal. Whether it’s boudoir or glamour, they just get a few like literally two less images, but they’re getting the prints in the folio box. So it’s all the numbers are the same. I don’t need to remember a bunch of different sets of like package numbers. It makes me more confident when I’m talking about it.

00:28:16:01 – 00:28:46:10

And then also, I don’t know, it doesn’t sound like this happens to you as much, but I got a lot of split sessions. So even just the other day, I shot someone who wanted headshot and then wanted boudoir so they come in in light makeup. We do their headshots. Then we like do the full voluminous hair, all the glam makeup, and then do all the sexy shots. And that’s like all in one thing. And it just makes it so much easier because I have the same package pricing.

00:28:46:18 – 00:29:25:23

So it’s just a matter of like, OK, well, you know, if you only needed two headshots, we’ll just do the single a la carte images for those and then we’ll just do the boudoir package. And it just makes it so easy to communicate versus like, this is my personal branding menu, and it’s something completely different structure to I agree 100 percent that you can’t just it’s not black and white like it does bleed over. And the irony is, when I photographed, I did a fabulous over 40 campaign that wrapped up last May, and I would say 80 percent or more of those clients also wanted head shots.

00:29:25:29 – 00:29:57:09

So even though they were carrying in for portraits, we would do hair and makeup for headshots and then just kind of make the eyes a little bit more dramatic or change lip color and maybe style hair a little different for the portrait part in that. So it’s yeah, they definitely bleed over. And I agree, having just having everything be similar with the session fee, it just makes so much more sense because then you’re right, you don’t want someone coming in for a different session and they’re like, Oh my God, do you charge me this for this? And now this is so much less like they feel. I think they would feel a little bit gyped at that.

00:29:57:21 – 00:30:30:03

But um, but yeah, for us, it definitely keeps it a little bit more straightforward. Yeah, totally. And now is the time where we open it up to audience questions. So if any of you are listening live and you have a question, just go ahead and hit that hand icon in the lower right hand part of your screen and we can bring you up on to ask. Your question? Kevin, I’m just going to toss it to you in the meantime, while we’re waiting for questions to roll in.

00:30:30:22 – 00:30:39:20

So earlier you had said you have a marketing person and I kind of want to know what also makes up the rest of your team.

00:30:41:13 – 00:30:51:15

Do you have an assistant? Are you outsourcing retouching to potentially that assistant? Who makes up your entire ecosystem there?

00:30:52:00 – 00:31:27:23

Yeah, I cannot do it alone, that’s for sure. And so I do have an amazing team, so my hair and makeup artist Stephanie does a fantastic job with our clients. There’s no way I could do what she does, and she gets them feeling comfortable and photo ready, for sure. I just brought on a new assistant a couple of months ago. Her name is Abby and she is amazing. She’s a mind reader. I love her. She’s great at capturing or noticing the little things like what will be in position and ready to take a head shot and or portrait and someone’s necklace is good, and she’s just right there to straighten those things up or set up for the next shot.

00:31:27:25 – 00:31:58:15

So she just helps to orchestrate things so smoothly. So she’s been a very integral part of my business, and we’re starting she’s starting to do some video work and capture behind the scenes, you know, doing the live, the things that I can’t do when we’re shooting session. So she’s been a variable, a very valuable asset to the team. So as Stephanie, of course, and then Abby. And then I also outsource retouching again. I I love retouching from time to time but it’s not something I want to spend all day doing and you can’t shoot and make money and run a business.

00:31:58:17 – 00:32:28:28

when you’re doing everything. You really have to, I think, know what your strengths and weaknesses are and then outsource the things that you can let go so that you can focus on growing your business and doing other things. So I have an amazing retoucher. His name is Paul Warner. If anybody, I’m sure quite a few people here know him. He does a phenomenal job with my work and I couldn’t do it without him. And then my marketing person, yes, her name is Nicole, and she’s based in the Chicago area and she is my right hand again.

00:32:29:00 – 00:33:07:28

She knows I know enough to be dangerous when it comes to digital marketing, but Nicole is the guru, and so she’s the one that knows how all the Facebook ads work and how the SEO works and how blogs work and what you should be doing with this. And you know, again, I helped her. She helped me immensely in designing my website, but I couldn’t have done what I did without her. So I have a very, very fortunate to have an amazing group of people. Would you say that you lean more into digital marketing or in-person marketing? Or is it like when I say in-person marketing? I mean, networking groups, networking meetings, that kind of thing?

00:33:09:17 – 00:33:41:11

Or do you think it’s like a 50 50 split for you? How do you run your marketing? Sure. So it’s still very heavily focused on digital marketing. I think because of COVID, some of the networking things I was doing were kind of put on hold, although I am trying to get back into that. But the catch is now Nicole’s doing such a great job for me with my digital marketing that I’m so busy with leads that I don’t really have a lot of time to go net work, which is a good problem to have. So there’s there’s definitely a lot of the the clients that I’m getting are from.

00:33:41:18 – 00:34:17:18

The marketing is being effective through the digital marketing things that we’re doing. You know, Google AdWords and things like that. But then also too, I’ve been in business now enough that I’m getting repeat clients that are coming back clients that we’ve done headshots for three and four years ago, the new headshots or they’ve changed careers or they change in our hair and they need, you know, updated headshots. So I’m getting a lot of repeat clients and then definitely a lot of referrals now too. So I would say probably a good 60 to 70 percent is digital marketing clients are coming from either Facebook ads.

00:34:17:20 – 00:34:49:05

Are you looking findng me on Google because of Google AdWords, things like that. And then the other portion is definitely we get clients and referrals. So one question I have for you is with all the leads that come in from digital marketing, do you ever feel like overwhelmed with keeping up for them? Is there anything you do on your website to kind of pre-qualify people so that you’re truly getting serious leads? How do you handle that? That’s a good question.

00:34:49:20 – 00:35:23:07

Nicole and I have been talking about that. You know, it is hard to call every single person back and chase people down. You really do need some. You almost almost need to outsource that. But I’m not quite ready to let that go. And I don’t know if I really want to, but I do have a CRM that I use that helps to track those. And then as far as you know, kind of pre qualifying them with pricing, we do have some pricing on the website, but I am my pricing is a little bit higher than others. And so I don’t really want to like blast a whole price list because I feel like at that point, people don’t quite know the value.

00:35:23:09 – 00:35:57:23

I think the value is communicated when you’re asking them the right questions and learning about them. So we would kind of tried that a little bit and we’re still trying to find the right balance for that. Yeah, I totally hear you. I’m kind of in a similar place where I have a lot of amazing digital marketing that brings in tons of leads, but sometimes it can be hard to find time in the day. To also call back all the leads in the quick time, and so I really like to get in contact with people within, you know, optimally, it would be twenty four hours, but definitely 48 hours.

00:35:57:25 – 00:36:29:16

And sometimes it just feels like, Oh my gosh, this is a champagne problem. But also it’s also a problem. You know, one thing I don’t know if this will help you, but one thing that I did recently and it has been kind of amazing is on my contact form. I actually put like a checkbox that says what my sitting fee starting price is. And it says, like, you know, start starting packages, minimum investment is blah blah.

00:36:29:23 – 00:36:44:08

And, you know, like a few words about what that includes. And then it says, like, yes, I understand that packages start at that price or like, No, that’s not going to work for me. Essentially, it’s it a little more elegantly than that, but

00:36:46:02 – 00:37:22:22

I have actually been, you know, since I did that about three weeks ago, four weeks ago, I’ve still been getting inquiries. I was really afraid I would just stop getting inquiries and lots of people will. All the people who have inquired of obviously like, check, yes, that they’re fine with that. And then when I get them on the phone, I feel like it’s a lot easier of a conversation because like I know that they know that they went and checked it off, you know? So I was really afraid to do that for a long time because like I said, I thought if I put, you know, because it actually my starting price is nine hundred.

00:37:22:28 – 00:37:59:18

So I thought if I put that out there, no one’s going to book me. But as it turns out, they do, and this is still people finding me from my Google ads, from my Facebook ads, from Instagram. So it’s it is a really helpful thing. I would just encourage anyone out there that’s struggling to maybe try that and not be so afraid of it. Yeah, I love that idea. In fact, I will definitely talk to Nicole about that and we’ll brainstorm because it’s you’re right, it’s a champagne problem. I love that saying, I’m going to start using that from now on. I use it as a first world problem, but I like the champagne problem that’s on a little bit more posh, right? I actually I really like that idea.

00:37:59:21 – 00:38:00:29

So I’m really glad you brought that up.

00:38:01:16 – 00:38:11:05

So, Angi, when it comes to marketing and putting your ads out there, how much are you spending to get on Google ads to do Facebook marketing?

00:38:12:03 – 00:38:44:14

Oh goodness, I should know this answer. I’d have to probably deflect to Nicole for a definitive answer on that one, but I believe it’s about nine hundred. I think is what we’ve kind of targeted for budgeting for Facebook ads. Google AdWords is a little less than that, but I should know the answer to that coming in. I’m embarrassed. You don’t. But you know, it’s again, it’s a champagne problem, right? Like, I’ve been so busy shooting clients and doing all the other things, but it’s around a thousand a month, I would say, for the digital marketing spend.

00:38:44:16 – 00:38:45:01

Yeah.

00:38:45:09 – 00:38:54:21

Now, to a lot of people, that might sound like a lot. Hmm. Can you explain why it potentially isn’t and how that benefits your business?

00:38:55:05 – 00:39:31:08

Sure. You book one client from it and you’ve paid for it one client. There you go. Yeah. And I’m shooting it probably on average two to three clients a week and averaging that for paying sale. So yeah, it’s definitely worth your investment. Without a doubt. Yeah. And I’d also say, and for people listening, that wonder about investing in ads is it’s also a time saver because your not having to go out into networking groups like I love going to networking groups, COVID has made it so like you said, it’s been much more difficult thing to do.

00:39:31:25 – 00:40:06:02

But, you know, networking groups are a big-time investment and it’s a lot of hustle. And so if you’d be getting those leads and have time to be doing other marketing activities that aren’t as time heavy as in-person networking, it’s sort of that time cost ratio of like what is worth it because time is money in your business if you’re busy shooting. You know, when I have big shooting weeks, I definitely don’t feel like going out and being with other people at a networking group afterwards.

00:40:07:29 – 00:40:43:24

And the other thing is, some of those networking groups are quite expensive and a big investment. I know when I was in BNI not only did it cost, I want to say it costs like fifteen hundred a year or something like that. But then there was the like weekly because it’s a weekly meeting. There was a weekly lunch which with tip and everything on tax and tip ran about 40 dollars a week. I mean, yeah, that’s still like, yeah, it adds up. It may not be as much as the ads, but I also don’t think I was getting as many clients for it as I get from the ads.

00:40:44:04 – 00:41:24:14

So it really like, I, you know, it’s going to depend for every single person, but I just would encourage people to if a thousand dollars sounds really expensive. But think about the money you’re making. If they’re making a 10k month, then is a thousand dollars that bad of an investment? Yeah. And there are some other strategic things you can do that still could fall under the category of networking, but that are a little bit a better return on your investment in a great one. If you have a great Chamber of Commerce, you being a part of that or being an ambassador with them, you know, the one that I’m a part of, it’s one meeting a month, but they’re really engaged chamber.

00:41:24:24 – 00:41:54:21

So if you’re shooting headshots and personal branding, I mean, that’s a goldmine. Yeah, exactly, yeah, I mean, I definitely wouldn’t encourage anyone to, like, give up in-person networking at all. I think it’s definitely super valuable. You just have to be picky and choosy with your time and was just trying to point out why people might invest in advertising, you know, a thousand dollars a month. And it not feel like this burden of an expense, but it might actually be like a joyful expense because it’s bringing new clients. Exactly. Yeah.

00:41:55:06 – 00:42:05:02

So like, would that BNI, if it doesn’t work out for you, then that those are funds that can obviously just be transferred into, you know, targeted marketing on Facebook or or Instagram.

00:42:05:21 – 00:42:36:09

Yeah, Google. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think would BNI can be really hit or miss in my personal experience. I think it depends on like and same thing with the Chamber of Commerce. It’s always going to depend on like how engaged a particular networking group is, the types of businesses that are in it a lot. So sometimes it can take a while to find the right networking group and sometimes you go lucky and just fall into a perfect networking group right off the bat. Yeah, exactly.

00:42:36:11 – 00:43:07:19

And I always try and think of things in terms of, OK, if I’m spending this, what really is my return and then I kind of compare it to one session. I’m in talks right now with a company about shooting some video for us. And when you look at the code, it’s like, Ouch, yeah, that stings. But then you think if I get one client out of this, it’ll pay for itself, you know? And then when you think of things in those terms and realistically also thinking, will it generate business if it’s something kind of obscure, maybe not so much, it might be higher risk.

00:43:08:00 – 00:43:13:06

But when it comes to digital marketing, especially Facebook ads, you know, you kind of be silly not to do it.

00:43:14:24 – 00:43:39:21

So, Angi with LinkedIn, for instance, is improving their marketing to my understanding and personal branding, you know, being so heavily tied to the blue collar working, I’m assuming white collar working that is on LinkedIn. Do you do you use it at all or have you checked into how it could potentially help your business?

00:43:40:21 – 00:44:12:17

You know, I should. I did at one point and it really wasn’t fruitful. I felt like I was just spamming messages out to people, but I would definitely entertain the idea of trying to strategically work it again. I use the irony is I use LinkedIn extensively when I was in H.R. recruitment, but I don’t really touch it now with personal branding, but I should that could actually be a goldmine and untapped goldmine, so I would be all ears on how to do that effectively, where it’s not spammy.

00:44:12:27 – 00:44:35:09

If that makes sense. I hate those. You know, everybody gets those emails. Hey, you know, have we got a deal for you? You know, but that always turns me off. So I don’t want to be that person. But yeah, there’s a way to utilize LinkedIn in an effective way. I’d be all for that. Well, we have Nicole on the stage, is this the Nicole that is a marketing person? It is. Welcome.

00:44:37:04 – 00:45:07:12

Thank you. I’m over here. You guys can’t see me blushing behind my ring light, but I wanted to just jump in and say Angi knows her number. She thinks she doesn’t. But you’re right on Angi. Double check them for you. And I wanted, you know, I wanted everyone to know that she knows and we do aim. She’s right for some around $1000 a month. She’s been doing this a really long time. So I love that you told other people that that might feel like a lot. It certainly has. I’m sure in her first three months we worked together her first three months that she did it. It really felt like a lot and maybe slow moving.

00:45:07:14 – 00:45:28:20

But she’s been doing it a while, so the algorithm really has figured out who her people are. And this month she’s at twelve fifty, so she usually doesn’t go too far over fourteen hundred dollars, but we try to keep it based on whatever the market’s doing somewhere hovering around that thousand dollar mark. And it’s been working sometimes I have to call her and ask her, Does she want me to turn off the faucet? And

00:45:30:08 – 00:45:33:12

she’s like, No, I don’t want to break anything. OK, OK, and it’s working.

00:45:33:14 – 00:45:34:05

Just keep it going.

00:45:34:16 – 00:45:38:18

Yes, yes. Yes, it’s very cynical, and I don’t want to break it, Nicole.

00:45:41:22 – 00:46:07:11

So, yeah, so we do try to make sure that expenses stays right around there and it works for her. And I’m happy to see that it does because I always tell people it takes a little bit upfront. But when you can get to that thousand dollar mark consistently, yeah, the platform learns you, your people learn you and it works out. That’s all I wanted. I just want to back you up with some numbers. I love that. I really appreciate that because I think it’s important for people to hear and understand.

00:46:08:24 – 00:46:17:12

Well, we’ll have you on stage if I can ask you a question. Questions question. Geez, this is why I hesitated. Like, I know what they’re doing is not so good. This is just

00:46:19:00 – 00:46:34:27

so what have you seen from her numbers of use wise, where people are coming from? Where have you seen it be more lucrative and inquiries going from? Is it more from Facebook? Is it more from Instagram? Is it Google ads?

00:46:35:21 – 00:47:10:18

Yeah. So her people are making a decision on Facebook. She may influence on Instagram for sure. She she does some beautiful work there that people love and take advantage of that. But someone with their wallet out or at least thinking with their wallet, they’re on Facebook and they’re making that decision. She is right. Even when you reach out to her, she isn’t. She isn’t the impulse buy. She’s not the candy bar. You know, they definitely were considering what they’re about to get into by filling out a form with her. So we we find that she can convert somebody on Facebook like inside the platform in a Facebook form.

00:47:11:15 – 00:47:43:15

She can convert them. And we even see a little bit higher quality if they’ve come to her website and, you know, through Facebook ad, but then went on her website. But we’re yeah. So we’re seeing just a lot of impressions, and she’s gotten really good with who she’s talking to her, her voice. It’s really clear to me who I need to write for when I write for her, I try to get in anyone’s head when I’m writing for them, but hers comes across nice and clear and we’re seeing a lot there. She certainly does well inside of Google AdWords

00:47:45:03 – 00:48:15:12

and gets a lot of views, but we’re watching the numbers convert on Facebook ads every time. And Nicole, just a question for you because sometimes people get confused. Obviously, Facebook owns Instagram, and when you run a Facebook ad, you can choose to run it. Also on the Instagram platform. So do you guys like leave out Instagram as a place for ads? Yeah, we turn it off. We turn it off. And then we will also turn off just strategy a lot of times.

00:48:15:14 – 00:48:50:26

So, OK, so I’ll also say that we also turn off a few different placements inside of Facebook as well. Well, we’ll monitor them. I like everything performance tested. I don’t I like to think with her wallet like it’s mine, any client wallet. I like to test something out for X amount of days to make sure. But you know, we might have a placement inside of a story and inside a feed, but we’re not putting a placement inside a marketplace for her, for an example, and you can choose all of those as a setting. And I don’t we don’t performance, test or find that it’s working inside of Instagram for someone to convert on her high ticket

00:48:52:26 – 00:49:22:28

and other photographers across the country from here to Australia, I find that they just it’s just not quite converting and I’d love to hear somebody else had a different experience. I haven’t seen it. They might convert something smaller or if there was an opt in, a lead magnet. But I find that people only come to the internet for two reasons or come to an app that’s like social media for two reasons. It’s either to learn something or so education or entertainment. And so they’re checked out of life for a minute because they need a minute at work or in the pharmacy line. God knows I’m a pre-K mom.

00:49:23:00 – 00:50:08:12

There’s always a pharmacy line. I feel like in my life they’re checked out of life for a minute if they go to instead. Grams are not always in a spending mindset, and we want to catch since she’s talking to those that are business branding, we want to catch them when they’re thinking with their wallet and people just will do it more so her her target will do it more so instead of Facebook, whether they feel comfortable or trusted or they’ve bought things there before, whereas it seems like Instagram still entertaining them. I love that you pointed that out, and I think it’s important to know that like, yeah, understanding how you can turn on and off placements in the Facebook ads manager, understanding exactly how Facebook ads work and having the ability to understand how you can split test and test ads.

00:50:08:24 – 00:50:29:24

See what’s working for your audience and track those key performance indicators is super important for anyone who is going to spend money in ads. You definitely don’t want to spend a thousand dollars without being very strategic about what you’re doing with that thousand dollars and you want to make sure it’s working for you. So thanks so much for pointing all that out for us, Nicole. My pleasure.

00:50:31:00 – 00:50:40:09

So Angi, with all of the stuff that you’re giving Nicole to do. Are you giving her carte blanche like you just handle it all? Just go ahead.

00:50:40:28 – 00:51:14:00

Pretty much. Yeah, yeah. Well, you’ve heard her now. So you know, and I confessed earlier, I know enough to be dangerous, but I don’t. I’m not an expert in those things. And so, yeah, I trust her implicitly. And you know, that trust came through working with her and seeing what the results that she was able to produce. And so it definitely comes through through that tried and true tried and tested method. But yeah, she just I I love her ideas and she’ll run things by me. And sometimes I have an epiphany in the middle of the night now message her the next morning.

00:51:14:02 – 00:51:29:15

Hey, what do you think about this? And she’ll say in a very nice like, Well, maybe we should try this and I’m like, OK, I trust your judgment. Or sometimes she’s like, Oh, that’s a cool idea. Let’s try that. So we’re constantly brainstorming with each other, but she’s the the wizard behind the curtain, making it all work.

00:51:31:09 – 00:51:48:10

So what type of content are you actually having her produce for you? Is it written copy? Is are you creating commercials that she’s or video that she creates into, like a commercial for yourself that she’s then posting on your behalf? Or what exactly are you putting onto the different ads?

00:51:48:20 – 00:52:20:17

Sure. So a lot of it is, yeah, the verbiage that goes along with the Facebook ads and kind of the targeting messaging and how to word it so that Facebook doesn’t ding you for it. I think if you use the word you too many times, that doesn’t work, for example. So it’s it’s a lot of that. We’re in the process of kind of revamping blogs and doing some newsletters. So there’s a lot that’s coming down the pike that hasn’t come out yet. Like I said, you were about to start some video stuff as well, so they got one of it is is just in the marketing.

00:52:21:14 – 00:53:04:08

We did a total revamp of the website recently, so that was very strategic going through and making sure the wording was right in that certain things were on there and in certain ways and in certain places. And the contact form is kind of embedded throughout the whole website now, which is super cool. I love that. So we only have a few minutes left, so I want to ask you this one question, which is what advice would you give to a photographer who is just getting started in this world of personal brand photography? I would say it can be very lucrative, of course, but find out why you enjoy it in your head.

00:53:04:10 – 00:53:37:09

Shots and personal branding is not for everyone. I think if you really enjoy the super creative shoots, then you might not enjoy personal branding as much. I mean, it can be very creative, but not in Hey, let’s do this outrageous makeup look with this hairpiece like you’re not going to get personal branding clients that want you to do that. It’s definitely more. It’s things more to where I find stuff on. It is helping people. You create the content, they need to grow their businesses and you’re helping them with people like us that are entrepreneurs and want to grow.

00:53:37:11 – 00:54:20:08

You kind of helping them along the way by creating that content for them. So I think you really have to be passionate about that genre to go down that path to shoot it. I agree, and I think you kind of have to also have a little bit of a passion for marketing, too, because, you know, the more you put these clients, the more you also have to sometimes be in that seat of educating people like you said earlier about how they’re going to use these images for the business, how these images are going to be a huge return on investment for them. And even though sometimes people know that sometimes our clients don’t have a visual based business, so they’re they’re kind of relying on us to tell them, you know, what’s going to look good and what’s going to make them money.

00:54:20:13 – 00:55:01:02

So I think also it’s important for people to to have that passion for marketing as well as photography. Would you agree? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And you have to be business savvy. You have to be able to to really know how to help people and also photograph people that don’t enjoy being in front of the camera. Let’s face it, we get a lot of people that are like, you know, my company is making me do this or, you know, I’d rather be at the dentist today than doing this. And so I think that the other fulfillment that I find from shooting the genre is really helping people get comfortable in front of the camera, or at least to the point where they see their head shots and they’re like, OK, now I’m excited about putting this out in the real world because I feel like it looks like me.

00:55:01:17 – 00:55:32:14

So I think that’s that’s really important. Yeah. And I think that that’s so much where, like Sue Bryce education ties into personal branding because I mean, the biggest thing that I’ve always took away from the many millions of things I’ve learned from Sue and her videos has been how to make every woman or every person feel and look amazing on camera. And I think whether they want to boudoir shoot or glamour shoot or they just have these photos for their business, that’s ultimately what people want.

00:55:32:16 – 00:56:06:24

They want to look good in their photos and they want to be feeling confident when they get in front of the camera for you. So I think that that’s why this is genre really does tie in so nicely to all the teachings that Sue offers. Absolutely. People want to feel seen and heard, and if you can make them feel seen, that’s half the battle. And I agree, and I think I’ve learned so much from Sue Bryce education in terms of how to photograph people, how to get the right angles, how to make people feel comfortable. The things that I say mean, I have some clients that come back and they always laugh because also this way just to tickle, because I just love how that sounds and people get it.

00:56:06:26 – 00:56:18:00

And so I say that a lot. And so people, you know, the those tips and tricks and everything has just really culminated into this, this part of my business, and I absolutely love it.

00:56:19:00 – 00:56:35:05

Fantastic. Well, Angie, it has been such a pleasure having you on with us today. Extremely informative. We have hit the one hour mark, but before we let you go, I wanted to be sure that our listeners know where to find you. So if you can, please share your thoughts with us.

00:56:35:23 – 00:56:50:21

Sure. So I’m on my website is Angi Lewis dot com and I know you, Angi No E.W. ISKCON. I’m on Instagram under Angi Lewis Photography. And then also on our Facebook page, Angi Lewis Photography as well.

00:56:51:29 – 00:57:28:24

Fantastic. Everyone, please, please be sure to follow Angi and also make sure to follow the portrait system on Instagram and on Facebook as well. And be sure to check out the blog posts that are associated with this Clubhouse interview at Sue Bryce Education dot com forward slash blog. You can also follow Ashleigh on Instagram and Ashleigh Taylor portrait that is s h l e HGH. And you can find me at pop light underscore photography to continue your knowledge in personal branding, you can always check out Nikki Closser’s New Course at the Portrait Masters dot com.

00:57:29:19 – 00:57:52:17

If you are a member of Sue Bryce education and you have more questions for Angi, Ashleigh or myself, you can go tag us in a post in the SBE member members only Facebook group. And if you are not a member of Sue Bryce education and you are interested in learning more about how we can help your business succeed. Email Ella in support at Support at Sue Bryce Education dot com. Thank you for joining us, and we hope to see you next week.

Also, be sure to check out the blog posts that are associated with our clubhouse interviews at SueBryceEducation.com/blog. If you are a member of Sue Bryce Education, you have any more questions for David, Ashleigh or myself go tag us in a post in the Sue Bryce Members Only Facebook group. If you are not a member of Sue Bryce Education, and you are interested in learning more about how we can help you and your business succeed, email Ella with support at support@SueBryceEducation.com.

Thank you again for joining us and we hope you can join us next week.

Thanks again for listening today. And don’t forget, you can listen to either me or our special guests every Friday on Club House at 11:00 a.m. Pacific. Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System Podcast. Your five-star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So, if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to SueBryceEducation.com, where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1,000 on-demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business, and self-value. 

There’s also the 90 Day Startup Challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to-do checklists for your business, lighting PDFs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that’s SueBryceEducation.com.