FULL TRANSCRIPT: Please note this transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

00:00:01:04 – 00:00:26:11

This is the Portrait System podcast, a show that helps portrait photographers and people hoping to become one navigate the world of photography, business, money, and so much more. We totally keep it real. We share stories about the incredible ups and the very difficult downs when running a photography business. I’m your host, Nilki Closser, and the point of this podcast is for you to learn actionable steps that you can take to grow your own business, and also to feel inspired and empowered by the stories you hear.

00:00:26:26 – 00:01:10:10

Hey, everyone, it’s Ashleigh Taylor, and I’m excited to introduce you to this week’s clubhouse edition of the podcast. This week, Kevin and I spoke with Matt Stagliano, and it’s always a great conversation whenever Matt is our guest. In this chat, we talked to Matt about how photographers can reframe their mindset around the negative feelings that come up when we enter photo competitions and don’t get the scores we’re hoping for. How we can learn to stop comparing our work style and path to others and find our own authentic voice and why creating personal work that’s solely for us and not for clients or competition is important as creatives.

00:01:10:24 – 00:01:16:27

It was a really great conversation and we can’t wait for you to listen to it. So let’s get started.

00:01:17:13 – 00:01:46:11

Welcome everyone to the Portrait System Podcast Clubhouse Edition. My name is Kevin Conde and I’m here with my co-host, Ashleigh Taylor. If you are not familiar with the portraits is Somewhere a portrait photography podcast that is powered by Sue Bryce, Nikki Closser, our host, our Monday episodes, and Ashleigh and I host our Clubhouse Edition, which is live here on the Clubhouse app every Friday at noon Pacific. And then our episodes are released on Thursdays. You can tune in on your favorite podcast app by searching for the portrait system. Ashleigh How are you doing today?

00:01:46:27 – 00:01:59:18

I’m good, Kevin. I’m excited to be doing this new thing where we’re on YouTube and Clubhouse at the same time. And I’m so excited that Matt Stagliano is our first guest to do it. So welcome Matt.

00:02:00:00 – 00:02:05:02

I’m the perfect fall guy. If something goes wrong with this thing on me.

00:02:05:05 – 00:02:07:02

Just blame it on him. It’s like, All right, that’s what we’ll do.

00:02:07:17 – 00:02:09:29

It’s good to be here, guys. Good to see your faces.

00:02:10:12 – 00:02:34:06

Yes. So Ashleigh and I recently got the opportunity to see you at Las Vegas at WPPI, and there were so many images, amazing images there, many of them created by people in our community. We also just wrapped up another round of the Portrait Masters Awards and Accreditation where our very own Ashleigh Taylor took seventh place in the boudoir category. So congratulations to her. Well.

00:02:34:25 – 00:02:35:24

Thank you.

00:02:36:14 – 00:03:12:29

But as amazing as seeing other people’s work, for a lot of people, it can lead to depression, comparison, imposter syndrome and feelings of unworthiness. You know, we look at our own work that we create and we might not feel inspired and we wonder why. Why are we even creating our work? You know, we experience burnout and we sometimes spiral. So talking to you, though, you said that taking the time to create your own personal work, you can kind of work on that and work on those feelings.

00:03:13:13 – 00:03:21:22

So can you tell me how has taking your own personal time to create affected your mindset as an artist?

00:03:22:25 – 00:04:08:12

Yeah, I think there’s there’s a lot that goes into that. And, you know, to talk a little bit about what you led into the question with, which was, you know, the depression and the imposter syndrome and the comparison and everything that we do when we enter competitions, it’s it’s a tricky place to be, right? Because we get so emotionally invested in a lot of these images, but we forget that we have to detach our ego from the art itself. Right. Because when you start putting things into competitions and they don’t score where you think they might be or you’re confused as to why they got the score that they did, and you start getting upset, understand that that’s just your ego going bananas.

00:04:08:21 – 00:04:55:28

And the important thing to do is look at why you’re entering the competition. What’s your intention for it? Right? Are you doing it to get better or are you doing it to win? Are you doing it to a level your own work or just get notoriety? Like all of those things are valid, but just understand the intention going into it. So if you don’t win or you don’t get the, the, the scores that you want, just understand that it’s okay. What can you learn from that process? What was it that the judges didn’t see that maybe you see and you can think about how to create your own a different way? For me, doing personal work and not competition work, just doing personal work has allowed me to explore things with no pressure at all.

00:04:56:06 – 00:05:32:22

I can fail. I can try. I can create amazing things that just exist in my head and have no pressure that it’s going to be scored or that it’s going to be judged. I’m the only person that can do any of that. But in order for me to get better as a photographer, I’ve got to keep going forward, failing, trying new things. And that’s where personal work for me. That’s where I spend a lot of my time. I don’t often create the same way that a lot of other people do where they might shoot for competition and they’re hiring models, or they’ve got a complete concept that they want to manifest.

00:05:33:00 – 00:06:14:06

For me, personal work is exploration and experimentation. So it’s a little bit easier for me to separate that out. What I find is that when it comes time to shoot for competition and I get to apply everything that I’ve learned, then it goes a lot easier. And then I can take those competition images. I’m not making gold here. I’m a bronze guy through and through. Right. But I can I can craft images more easily and spend less time fiddling for competition image and pull from all my experience and create something faster so that I can spend more time finessing it and tweaking it.

00:06:15:13 – 00:06:43:17

So I think personal work allows you to learn so much not only about yourself, but about your process, your workflow, your craft. And then when it comes time for competition, you can take all that and enter it and a lot of times you see the results. For me, competition is always a learning experience. I don’t I don’t ever get upset about scores. I just understand that if I can continue to trend higher and higher scores, I’m getting better as a photographer, and that’s all I really care about.

00:06:45:03 – 00:07:17:03

Matt, do you feel like you’ve ever done a personal shoot and then you it like impressed you more? It was not meant to necessarily like be a competition shoot or anything like that, but you’re like, Wow, this turned out so well. I want to submit it. Or do you feel like that? Kind of like. If it doesn’t score well, for example, that can kind of like put that ego back in where you’re just like, Oh no, now I feel terrible about myself. I thought this was awesome. I was doing this for me. And now people think it’s stinky.

00:07:19:06 – 00:07:55:02

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So I did a shoot last year and some people might have seen it. It was I did Medusa, right? I tried to think about what would happen if Medusa came into the studio for personal branding shots. So I went through and brought a model that a friend of mine is a makeup artist. And so we collaborated on this thing and I made this snake headpiece and it was amazing. And we did one day and it was kind of like a pre-production day and we shot. Didn’t like it.

00:07:55:04 – 00:08:25:25

She came back a few weeks later and we shot it again and this time we had worked out all the things that we had failed at before and really put it forward into the new shoot. So from that person and I was just doing this for me because I, you know, I shoot a lot of regular clients. I wanted to do something a little bit more conceptual. So she came back, we shot it again, and the images that came out of it, I was like, These are dope. I can like these came out way better than I thought they were going to let me enter them into the awards and accreditation.

00:08:26:05 – 00:08:57:18

And I entered them and I don’t want to say they flopped, but I was just like, These are silver written all over them. Like, There’s no way in hell this is not going to get a silver. Didn’t get a silver, barely got a bronze. So so, you know, there were there were lower scores. There wasn’t, I think 71 to 73. I entered a few of them from the set and I looked at them and I said, okay, that was a big lesson for me to put aside my expectations and just put forward the craft.

00:08:57:20 – 00:09:29:16

Right, because they’re not making a judgment on me as a photographer. They’re judging the work itself. So it forced me to to go back and look and see all the things in hindsight, like in retrospect, looking at I’m like, Oh yeah, that could have been better. The skin tones could have been blended more, there could have been more emphasis on light and shadow and, you know, texture. And I could have taken that wrinkle out and you start to see all the things that you could do better. So I was blind to that because I was so invested in the image itself.

00:09:29:18 – 00:10:00:24

I had emotionally invested in the image so much that. You know, when I saw the scores, I let it get to me a little bit. But then putting that aside, I was just like, Oh, yeah, no, I see why this could be much better. So tweaking them that way, I mean, that was really just a personal project that I had started to shoot for me, but I was like, These are good enough. Let me let me see how they do. And, you know, when they do go through the competition cycle, I just realized that there’s always more to work on, always more to work on.

00:10:01:28 – 00:10:32:13

So you say you’re able to kind of. You got the scores. They weren’t what you expected, but you kind of sounds like for you at least you’ve made it easy to be able to pull yourself away from the scores. Whereas, you know, this is something that you felt like this is going to be silver, you know? Right. Is that something that you’ve had to work towards or is that something within yourself that you’ve just been able to? Well, I didn’t get it. I’m going to step away. You’re going to take a day to kind of and then get over it.

00:10:33:11 – 00:10:38:10

So competition is not a life or death situation. It’s a game.

00:10:38:29 – 00:10:39:14

Right?

00:10:40:13 – 00:11:11:27

It’s a game that’s good. That’s all it is. We enter images that we like, that we think best represent our talents, and we put them in. And it’s a game. When you go to WPP and you look at the print competition, you’re in the NFL, right? Like, you can go in there and you could have worked out for years and come in in great shape and do well in the NFL. Or you could be like me and have, you know, coffee and donuts and wander into training camp and not have put in the work to produce what you need to produce.

00:11:12:08 – 00:11:59:13

So when I look at awards and accreditation, whether that’s with the portrait system or WPPI or PPA, because I enter in a bunch of different competitions, what I do is I understand that it’s just a game. There’s no life or death on any of this. Right. And it is I feel bad when I see people that are, you know, upset about scores that might be a little bit lower. But what were you expecting? And I don’t mean that in a in a condescending way, but like, what were you is this your first competition? Well, if it’s your first competition, get the experience, understand how scoring is done, understand what judges are looking for so that you can work towards that and tell better stories, get better at your craft, and you will see the scores rise.

00:11:59:25 – 00:12:33:28

But I think I think it might have been the last round of the awards in accreditation, there were something like 11,000 entries, right? 300 or thereabouts, got silver out of 11,000. So, you know, people are getting upset that scores in this bronze range are a little bit lower. It’s still professional standard, high professional standard. No one should be upset with that. And if your scores are below 70, just understand that there might be some things that you need to work on.

00:12:34:09 – 00:13:10:06

But we’re here as working professional photographers. We want to have a standard that is professional, and competition’s a great way to separate yourself from regular client work and just play a game. Just get better at your craft, do things for you. And you know, for me, Kevin, it’s always been relatively easy to separate things out because I approach it as a game or a measuring stick rather than my self-worth hinges on a score because it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

00:13:10:08 – 00:13:13:06

There’s no score for your own self.

00:13:13:08 – 00:13:45:21

Love I love that you point this out, Matt, because like, I’m definitely someone who can sometimes like make it about me. You don’t say, Oh no, this score means something about me and my value as a photographer. And I definitely like in my own life, I think I comes from like my family was very like grade oriented in school for me growing up and like basically if I came home with a B in anything, I had failed. I had like straight A’s and like always like the top straight A’s.

00:13:45:23 – 00:14:51:21

And I remember the very first round of the Portrait Masters competition I submitted and obviously had never submitted anything and didn’t really know anything about it. And all my images got seventies, which in my life I’ve never seen a seven be associated with anything that I’ve ever done just Sue and listen to everyone and realize, like, it’s not grade school grades, it’s something entirely different. And like, holding myself to this standard of perfection is not helpful to my growth. And it probably was never helpful to my growth because as a kid I would like selectively choose what I would do if I only if I knew I could excel at the highest level at it. So that’s like something in my own life that I’ve been working so hard to unlearn and undo and come from a place of like, it’s okay to not succeed, like succeed or like even get a 70.

00:14:51:23 – 00:15:15:21

Sometimes, like you have to put your hat in the ring, like you have to get in the game and play it if you want to have a chance at winning and learning. And yeah, so it’s I really appreciate you putting it that way because I think there might be a lot of people out there who, whatever their own life story is, also see the number as a reflection of them. And it’s not a reflection of who you like, your value and who you are.

00:15:15:29 – 00:15:56:01

Absolutely not. And, you know, I’m that I’m built the same way as you are, actually. I’m a little bit taller, but I’m built the same way in terms of perfectionism a little bit. But in terms of the perfectionism and competition for high scores. Right. It’s built into a lot. Of us, right? We want affirmation. We want to be told that we’re good at what we do. Right? We want to score 100. But I think when it comes specifically to competition, just understand that the scoring system in photographic competition is completely different than normal grades.

00:15:56:13 – 00:16:30:20

Right. And you can’t think that just because it’s bronze. Right. We’re told that bronze, silver, gold. Right. Olympic medals. That bronze is third place like your second loser. Right. So people look at it that way and you can’t understand what it means when you’re getting a merit in PPA or you’re getting a bronze in the portrait system. Awards and accreditation. Like understand what it means. It means that you’re taking phenomenal photos much better than a lot of people that are out there.

00:16:30:28 – 00:17:01:29

So what I’ve tended to do is, especially in this last round, I submitted six images and got four bronze with distinction and two bronzes. And I was playing I’m not a boudoir photographer, so I submitted a few boudoir pictures that I’m working on learning so that I have a baseline for my work. So as I produce more work and I can entered into competition, I can see if in judges eyes I’m getting better at my craft now.

00:17:02:22 – 00:17:38:21

My clients love what I do, and that’s the important thing. When I get income, that is the best grade that I can receive on anything. I don’t care what some judge that I’ve never met thinks about my photo. If my client loves it and they’ve got an emotional connection to it, that’s all I care about. If they see something that I’ve created in my personal work and they like it, they can connect to it. It resonates with them. That’s what’s important to me, right? The judging, the competition is just a great way to measure myself against other people in my industry.

00:17:39:00 – 00:18:11:14

And it gives me inspiration to get better over and over and over at WPPI. I was walking around and looking at all these images, and more than once I was like, I will never create something that’s gorgeous, right? And it knocks you down a few pegs. You realize how long the road ahead of you is. But then you realize there’s some people that have been doing this for 20 or 30 years. I’ve been shooting portraits for about four years. So thinking about, you know, the road that I have to travel, it’s exciting to me.

00:18:11:16 – 00:18:12:17

It’s inspiring to me.

00:18:13:07 – 00:18:44:20

Yeah. I also think, like there’s something to be said for finding your own style and trying to do it your way. Because the image that I place with this round in portrait masters in the boudoir work category and I got a silver at WPPI, I actually was kind of came from a conversation we’ve had in the past with like Nicole Carson and Rachel Owen, who have these really elaborate composite. They score gold. It’s just not it’s not ever going to be the photographer that I am.

00:18:44:22 – 00:19:15:02

And I sat back and I thought about things and I was like, I want to get a silver, but I want to do it my way. Like, I don’t want to have this highly composited image. I want it to be clean. I wanted to be like, I want it to be me. But obviously I’m going to have to step it up if it’s going to be like a word level. And that’s how that image came to be. And I feel like of all the images that I’ve done, I’ve done, I’m most proud of that one, just because I was able to score but also like stay true to like it’s not a highlight.

00:19:15:10 – 00:19:50:04

There is a head swap in it, but like other than that, it’s not a highly composited image, it’s not a highly photoshopped image. It’s mostly like lighting and camera and posing and styling, which is like what I feel like my strengths are. But it was hard to do when I only got the one silver in the round. So it’s not like it’s not like I can like get it out of the ballpark every time. But I think too, like you also don’t have to play this. Like, it has to be a certain way, like it has to be this highly composited or like highly, highly styled thing where you spent like thousands of dollars on costumes and sets and all this stuff.

00:19:50:06 – 00:19:58:25

Like, you can do it your way. You just have to figure out like what your, your own personal style and what your own personal, like, aesthetic is.

00:19:59:15 – 00:20:30:03

Absolutely. 100%. And and again, I’m very similar. I like to get things done in-camera with this little digital art after the fact as possible. And I know that that cost me in my scores. I know it does. Right. Because there are certain technical aspects in some of these competitions where it does become about digital art rather than capturing something in in the camera and you can have your opinions about does that make it a photography competition or a digital art competition? Doesn’t matter. It is what it is. Right. But I’m the same way.

00:20:30:05 – 00:20:51:18

I shoot. I shoot for an in-camera image and try to manipulate it as little as possible because I like the challenge of it. And I don’t see the world the way that a lot of these other photographers see the world and they can see these final images. They’re astounding. I just I don’t understand how their brains work.

00:20:51:23 – 00:20:57:11

I know. I don’t either. It’s mesmerizing.

00:20:57:13 – 00:21:28:26

So I think, you know, when I’m creating, I also keep that in mind knowing that, you know, my Rolling Stone cover type of image is going up against these highly stylized portraits. Of course, there’s going to be more craft and some of that, but I like to compete against it anyway. I like to kind of wander iand see how my images are going to do and, you know, watch those trends over time. But I have no I have no shame in entering any of that stuff.

00:21:29:03 – 00:21:31:13

I just understand what the game is. What the level is.

00:21:31:19 – 00:22:07:04

And that’s what I learned through those conversations as well. So if anyone hasn’t listened to those older episodes that we have and I would I would highly recommend it because it really inspired me and helped me know like where also we had a great conversation with Erika Manning. So like all those conversations kind of helped me understand like how can I do this better? And then also how can I be me while doing it? Because I like if I try to do some sort of like. Extreme fabric blowing image with all this composite stuff, like I’m probably not going to do it that great because it’s really not me.

00:22:07:06 – 00:22:17:17

It’s me trying to put on a costume of like an award winning photographer. And that’s not like how you that’s not the way to do it, really. In my opinion. It’s to be yourself.

00:22:17:27 – 00:22:19:03

I agree 100%.

00:22:20:18 – 00:22:52:07

So so, Matt, let’s take it back a little bit. Sure. With with creating your own personal workers, people who are so busy trying to create their business and they don’t even have time to put the thought into what their own creative work is. Where does someone even approach the idea of creating their own personal work? Is it trying a new lighting set up? Is there a different genre? How does someone go about creating work outside of what they know to be their business? To be creative?

00:22:53:18 – 00:22:56:26

So how do you be creative? What is art?

00:22:58:14 – 00:23:40:17

You know, it’s a it’s a big conversation. For me, it’s not about the camera or the lights or the backdrop or the set or the clothing or the hair or makeup or anything like that. I always start with what’s the story that I’m trying to tell, right? Because the story is going to drive everything else. So if I, you know, I started in my mind, you know, I want I want to shoot a picture of Medusa. Well, how can I twist that? Well, what if she was living in the 20th century? 21st century? Okay, well, what if she wanted portraits, right? How does she see herself in reflections? Right.

00:23:40:26 – 00:24:13:12

So you start developing a story. It can be as easy as getting a jar of spice and waving it under your nose and understanding what images come up in your head. Listening to a piece of music. Right. Just going for a walk and observing what’s around you. Take a tree. How did that tree get there? What? Birds have sat on that tree? Right. You start to develop these stories. From that you can get inspired and start creating images.

00:24:13:18 – 00:24:47:09

Right. It doesn’t have to be for a client and it doesn’t have to be anything that anyone else understands except for you. As long as it’s scratching that creative itch, then that’s the important thing. If you see something in your mind, you don’t know how to accomplish it. Start sketching, get mood boards, understand? You know, how do I get to that lighting look? What do I need to do with my craft, with my camera to try to capture that? And, you know, a lot of people I’ll fix it in post.

00:24:47:11 – 00:25:20:16

I’ll just take it into Photoshop and fix it. Don’t. Because if you can learn to create the things in camera, it just expands your possibilities. But for me, it’s always about story. Always start with the story. From there, you can do whatever you want and it may lead you down a path that you hadn’t thought of before. A lot of us think, you know, as portrait photographers need a backdrop and one or two or three lights and perfect hair and makeup and a nice wardrobe. Right posing expression, right connection, all that sort of stuff.

00:25:21:04 – 00:25:57:18

But. What if we didn’t have any of that and we had little iPhone, right? Take away all the gear. You can still create amazing things with a phone, but you’ve got to have in your mind what it is that you want to create. You’ve got to have a little bit of vision, but then let that lead you down. All of these other paths, that’s where the fun comes in. But if you’re shooting without intention. If you’re shooting willy nilly, hoping to get something good, then you’ll wind up frustrated a lot of the time.

00:25:57:29 – 00:26:31:14

Instead, set your intention to be. I’m doing this for me to grow, to get better at my craft. Set an intention that makes you feel good and then follow that. I think there’s a lot of people that put a lot of pressure on themselves trying to make something that they’ve already seen, trying to be another photographer, be your own photographer, develop your own voice, develop your own style. And you can only do that through tapping into your own creativity, tapping into your own spirit

00:26:32:00 – 00:26:55:24

And so, you know, if you can find time to do that once a month, twice a month, just play around. It’s amazing how much that will keep you fueled for other shoots. And, you know, you start adding in some play time for your client shoots as well, like, hey, let me try this. And then suddenly the client’s blown away about what you’ve created. So I just always start with story. Long winded answer, but I got there.

00:26:56:21 – 00:26:57:06

You know.

00:26:57:20 – 00:26:58:28

I’m sorry, Kevin.

00:26:59:00 – 00:27:36:14

No, no. I was just going to pointed out that I love the fact that you pointed out earlier that you give yourself the opportunity to fail. For instance, the Medusa. The Medusa shoot. It wasn’t a one time thing. You didn’t get it right the first time. You took it to a second time, a second shoot to get it right in camera and giving yourself that opportunity. You know, you had an idea of where you wanted to go. You didn’t it hit it. So you took another shot. There’s nothing wrong with that, you know, especially when it comes to creating your own creative, personal work, you know.

00:27:37:07 – 00:27:40:09

So I just want to say that. Ashleigh. Oh.

00:27:41:26 – 00:28:15:10

I was just going to say to you, like, I also love the point in that long winded answer that you brought up about, like finding your own creativity, because we always try to be like other photographers. And I mean, I can relate to that in my own journey. Like I discovered Sue in 2012, and I just wanted to be another Sue, you know? And it’s honestly taken me a long time to like try to find out, like, how can I shoot in my own way while taking all these amazing tools that I’ve learned? And they’re priceless.

00:28:15:12 – 00:28:54:05

And I feel like that’s the thing is like when we’re starting out, we’re just trying to learn, like, how do you do it? How do you. And you have to mimic in a lot of ways, too, to learn how to do it in that technical style or in those rules. I mean, that’s probably what classical music or classical ballet training. And then you get to this point where you’re like, okay, how can you break the rules and how can you make this your own? And that is part of the journey. So like no shame to someone who’s listening, who might still be in the journey where they’re like, But I’m just still learning how to do it, like the technically right way or I’m still just trying to learn how to like, shoot in this style before I can find my own style too. Right.

00:28:54:10 – 00:29:34:26

And you know, what is it that Sue says comparison is the thief of joy, right? Yeah. So when we’re constantly comparing where our journey is versus somebody else’s, you don’t know the path that they’ve gone down. You don’t know that all the work that they’ve done. But if you look at their work and say, I’m really inspired by this and I want to learn what they do, that’s perfectly fine. I have no issue with any of that. That’s how we learn. You don’t learn to play blues guitar without listening to B.B. King once or twice, right? So you’ve got to be able to look at that, interpret the pieces, mix them all up with your own creativity, and then start producing something that is purely yours.

00:29:35:08 – 00:30:14:29

I think it’s the only way to emotionally connect with your own work, otherwise you’re chasing someone else’s style, and that’s robbing the world of what you can actually create. So I just I always try to direct people to take influence, take inspiration, but always make it your own, always add your little flavor into it, because that is where people start to notice like, Ah, that’s a Kevin Conde photo or It’s an Ashleigh photo, right? So when you develop that style, I am still searching for that.

00:30:15:07 – 00:30:17:07

But one day, man, I know it’s coming.

00:30:17:15 – 00:30:49:29

So I mean, I’m still searching too, but it’s like over time I’ve been able to figure out little things that I think I are my little signature thing, you know what I mean? Like it’s like I feel like I’m really good at capturing sensuality, but not like overt sexuality, for example in boudoir imagery. And I really enjoy capturing, like, feminine sensuality. And so I notice, like in my images, that’s like a consistent throughline that I like, bring to all my images.

00:30:50:10 – 00:31:11:18

Like the more I can, like embrace that. That’s when I get really excited with the images that I create. And when I get far from that, because I’m trying to like, again, like to copy or to just, you know, sometimes it just making a client happy and just it’s like, okay, well, they want this. It’s not really my style, but I want to get paid so I’ll

00:31:11:20 – 00:31:18:08

do that. That’s when I have that dissonance where it doesn’t really feel like myself.

00:31:18:26 – 00:31:49:21

Yeah, it’s it’s a challenge man. You know, I’m a I’m a one light guy, right? I have more lights on me now than I do when I shoot clients. Right. And I’m that’s kind of my thing. I focus on connection and try to strip everything else out. I want intense connection in my portraits. I want that person on the other side of my camera to trust me 150% that I’m going to give them incredible images.

00:31:50:00 – 00:32:21:09

And a lot of that is through just understanding, listening, talking to people. Right. And that is the one thing that I try to create my style around is connection, the same way that you do for sensuality. And, you know, Kat does a great job with drama. Oh, yeah. Good Lord. She she creates incredible images with drama and passion. So when you can bring that thing through your photography, you’re on the right path. But.

00:32:22:07 – 00:32:40:03

To get there. You copy a lot of people. God knows I did it over and over and over and over because that’s how you learn. That’s where you realize, like, Oh, my God. Felix had it right with the whole feathering light thing. Turn it up. Turn it down. Move it further away. Get it? Really not that complicated, but it blows people’s minds.

00:32:40:13 – 00:32:40:28

Yeah.

00:32:41:00 – 00:32:50:17

And once you learn basic concepts like that, then you tweak it to your own style. And that’s where you really start to grow. That’s where the incredible growth happens.

00:32:50:28 – 00:33:15:03

Yeah, well, we’re at that fun point of the conversation where we love to open it up to audience questions, if there are any. Oh boy. And so if you do have a question, you’re going to go to the lower right hand part of your screen in Clubhouse only and hit the hand icon. And then we can bring you up on stage and you can ask Matt or Kevin or myself a question.

00:33:16:23 – 00:33:51:23

In the meantime, while we’re waiting for those questions to roll in. Matt, I wanted to ask you. So when someone is. In this pure ego thing. They just really need to let it go. Like, what is a good, like, tactical practice, if that makes sense? Like something tangible. Do you have any, like, things that you do, for example, like do you go exercise or walk or like how do you get out of that energy? That’s just like, Ah!, and get back to the creative.

00:33:52:05 – 00:34:24:12

Yeah, I get away from it. So there are a lot of times I get super frustrated when I’m trying to create something. I’ve got a picture here and I just can’t make it happen. Right. Happens a lot on commercial projects as well. Right. Something I want to create and I just can’t get there. A lot of times I try to be self-aware enough to know that I’m getting to that spot first, that I’m starting to get frustrated that I’m feeling my my body change, that I’m tensing up. When I feel that. And I’m I’m immediately not in a creative space because I’m thinking about all these other things.

00:34:24:23 – 00:34:57:24

So I step back from it. I breathe. I go for a walk, play with my dog. Something to completely break the pattern of what I’m in. So when I do that, I can remove myself from those emotions, that ego, and just be just be present for me. You know, a lot of meditation, a lot of quiet practice keeps me relatively centered. But, you know, I’m human and I go through all these emotions and I get frustrated a lot.

00:34:58:19 – 00:35:28:19

It’s it’s easy to arrest it and focus on breathing. For me, I’m just kind of like, all right, you’re not going to get it right feeling like this. So how can I change my state? How can I interrupt that pattern and approach it in a different way, get a fresh set of eyes, so to speak. And so, yeah, that’s what I do. Just try to stay in balance. A lot of it, you know, to balance off the mental, you’ve got to have the physical end. So going for a walk is great. A little bit of sunshine is good.

00:35:28:27 – 00:35:37:19

Sitting in the chair, we were not meant to do this 16 hours a day, but a lot of us do. So yeah, I get up, you know, and that’s how I break it.

00:35:38:06 – 00:36:08:10

Yeah, I know. For me, like, I notice if I don’t go to my dance classes or just move in some way, I get really irritable. But sometimes I like I don’t know if you have this thing where, like, the couch is like a scene cool. Like about like you put your butt on the couch and then you’re like, I shall never move again. And it’s just like sometimes you get stuck in that inertia. And then I don’t notice, but like, my anxiety is like taking up a lot and I’m like, but I don’t have the motivation now to move.

00:36:08:12 – 00:36:39:23

And I can get through these like, I don’t know, like you’ve call them like a depressive period or like an anxious period, but this kind of like stuck thing. But when I finally, like, break it and force myself to do, like, movement activities that I love, I remember like, oh yeah, this is when I’m cool Ashleigh. And fun Ashleigh. And late, actually, instead of like heavy, dramatic, anxious Ashleigh. So I feel like as creatives we get stuck in our chairs a lot and it can be really easy to just decompress and scroll through your phone, but like, definitely don’t do that.

00:36:40:08 – 00:36:41:12

Like, it’s a lot of bad.

00:36:41:22 – 00:37:20:12

A lot of us live in our heads, right? So we’re always up here. But understand that unless you’re you’re adding in, our bodies are meant to move and you can cause a lot of not, I want to say neurological damage, but bad patterns, bad. You can ingrain bad habits in your brain to not be able to shut off and switch to something else. You’re not going to get the dopamine hits from being active and your brain needs a lot of that. And if we just sit there and constantly redline and go a thousand miles an hour in our head, you going to burn out? So just ease up off the gas a little bit.

00:37:20:14 – 00:37:21:00

Get outside.

00:37:22:09 – 00:38:05:14

I did want to say we do have a question from the audience, so if you would like to unmute yourself. Michael. Hey, good afternoon, Kevin, Matt and Ashley. My question for Matt a question for Matt. It’s actually kind of a couple questions, but it’s all related. It’s for those who may be struggling with as far as like connection, what way have you found that work best for you on connecting with that client? Maybe, is it like during the pre consultation, which I would assume. But what processes do you have to to really start connecting with the client before the shoot? And does that differ between when you’re doing a paid client versus like a personal project? I am going to have a follow up depending on your answer.

00:38:06:10 – 00:38:07:15

Sure. No pressure then.

00:38:08:09 – 00:38:08:26

So.

00:38:09:15 – 00:38:46:06

Yeah, I think. You’re spot on, right? So my initial approach to connection always happens at the consultation, so it can even be that very first phone call, but especially when they come in, because I want to get an understanding of what their intention is for the photoshoot. Some people might just be as easy as I just need new headshots. Some people are doing it for other reasons. They’re going through a period of life or whatnot. So what I try to do is just sit, ask questions, listen, really listen to what they’re saying so that I understand.

00:38:46:11 – 00:39:21:15

All right. There might be a little bit more behind this as people talk and as you’re able to listen to them and put together their story. What you’re doing is you’re building a closer relationship so they don’t walk into the studio fresh off the street. And now you’re starting that connection process. You do this the entire time that you’re working with a client from that initial email or text or phone call through the consultation, educate them throughout the process. So by the time they ever get to the studio or get to the shoot itself, you’ve built this trust.

00:39:21:17 – 00:39:52:10

You’ve built this relationship now because they look at you as the photographer, as the expert, right? No matter what we think about ourselves in our head, you are the expert. You are the professional photographer. They’re trusting you to create with them. What I do is try not to stay behind my camera all the time. I just put it down and I talk to people and occasionally raise it up, take a picture. But I keep them engaged so that they’re thinking less about the process of the shoot and just having a conversation.

00:39:52:24 – 00:40:23:09

My job is to make beautiful images of people. I can do that in 5 minutes or 5 hours. It’s the connection with the person and having a relationship with them, which is going to make the beautiful images, not the it’s not the light, it’s none of that stuff. It’s just understanding who’s in front of you, treating them like a human and just having a good conversation. For me, the connection just comes from that and it comes straight through the image. A lot of times it’s just making people laugh, making them feel comfortable.

00:40:23:11 – 00:40:31:24

It’s awkward enough to be in front of a camera, so by making people comfortable, making them laugh a little bit, I find that that really helps with the connection.

00:40:32:26 – 00:40:56:06

Perfect. And in the follow up question kind of was, and I think you sort of answered that, but it’s during the shoot, I would assume it’s kind of the same process of like having that conversation easy going, you know, putting the camera down and putting it up first when you’re doing clients versus like a personal shoot, maybe when you’re shooting a friend for like a personal project that you’re doing, it’s the same kind of process as you doing.

00:40:56:21 – 00:41:28:23

Yeah. And you know, the interesting thing about personal projects is, especially when you’re shooting with friends or people that you know, right? There’s very little pressure. And, you know, unless you’re paying for makeup artists and you’re paying for, you know, other folks to come in and help, then there’s a little bit of pressure. But the the still the thing is, you’re there to create something that’s never been created before. And so by collaborating with people, by working with them, by telling them what you’re trying to do, you open up, you know, a lot of different creative avenues.

00:41:29:03 – 00:42:07:24

Ask for help, ask for input, right? Ask if they understand what you’re trying to do. Work with people. That for me, when I’m in personal work with somebody else and I’m not doing self-portraits, but believe me, I still talk to myself when I’m doing self-portraits. But if I’m working with somebody else, I involve them in the process so that, you know, it feels more like we’re working together rather than I’m taking a picture of them, right? We’re working towards a goal together. And a lot of times, you know, the connection, albeit different than with a client, is still there because they’re as invested in this project as I am.

00:42:08:22 – 00:42:09:12

Does that answer your question?

00:42:09:20 – 00:42:25:15

Yeah, I know that it’s great. And we talked about this actually in WPPI and it was a great conversation that we had. So I kind of knew the answers for them. But I know that conversation so much that that we had, that I needed it to be like recorded for other people to hear too, because I think it’s, you know, you offer that for them.

00:42:26:20 – 00:42:29:05

So I answered it the same way. God, no. Yeah, no, I.

00:42:29:18 – 00:42:46:03

Know pretty much pretty much pretty much exactly. And that was I remember like walking away from my conversation, I was like, yeah, that was, I should have been recording it, but I appreciate you more and you guys and I’ll see Kevin later on today, you know? I think so. Thank you. I’m done for today.

00:42:46:21 – 00:42:49:09

Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Mark. It’s good to hear your voice.

00:42:51:00 – 00:43:00:13

His work is amazing, by the way. Yes. If you’re in clubhouse, go to Michael’s profile. Click on his Instagram. Follow amazed just. His work is is phenomenal.

00:43:00:23 – 00:43:02:09

And he’s a cool person as.

00:43:02:27 – 00:43:04:23

Well. There’s that. He was that too.

00:43:07:02 – 00:43:41:24

Yeah. Something you said I found extremely fascinating and… Not even to the point where it’s it’s just for personal projects. But the idea of being able to bring that into your own personal. Working with clients is making them feel like they are part of the process. It’s not a matter of, hey, I’m going to be the professional and you just sit there and do your thing. But making people feel comfortable from the very beginning by having them understand that this is a process that we are doing together.

00:43:41:28 – 00:44:03:06

Yes, it is my job as a photographer to take the pretty pictures to position you in the right way. But the idea of bringing you in and say, hey, we’re making this as a co- a co-job, you’re not just, you know, me doing it by myself. We’re going to make you comfortable by bringing you into the fold, into the process.

00:44:03:25 – 00:44:36:13

Yeah, it’s it’s super important, right? Because, you know, we’re so focused on what it is that we want to create. Right. What poses do I do? I’m going to do the wall pose. I’m going to do seated pose and I’m going to do. And the more you’re in your head and not communicating with the client or the subject that you’re shooting. Right. It could be a dog. Right. If if you’re not communicating well with that person. Then they pick up on that, and we’re wired to be distrustful if we’re not being told things, right.

00:44:36:15 – 00:45:10:15

So if you’re fidgeting around and you’re doing a whole bunch of things and you look a little bit chaotic, clients are going to pick up on that. If you can explain to them what you’re doing along the way, Hey, here’s why I’m doing this. I’m really trying to get this look. Maybe if we position you this way and have them start to, you know, you ask them questions and ask them to pose and take a picture and then you pose them, quote unquote, correctly, and then you show them that you like, see, this is why I’m doing it this way.

00:45:10:17 – 00:45:53:03

This is why I’m raising your chin. This is why I’m turning you this way. They start to feel like, okay, I trust this guy. He knows what he’s talking about. And, you know, if you open yourself up like that, they may start telling you other things that you can work into the process. I don’t like the way I look here. I don’t like the way I look. They’re perfect. That’s awesome information to know. I won’t put you in that position again. And, you know, understanding your client, it’s all those little things that really contribute to connection for me, because it becomes less about the the photographer client relationship and more about two friends trying to make some really kick ass pictures together.

00:45:54:11 – 00:46:23:05

So talking about working together and making kickass pictures together, bringing it back to the original conversation of I’ve seen you working with other people within the portrait system community. I’ve seen you create, you know, you have people to your studio or you go to theirs. Does that fall into doing your own personal work? And would you say that doing it a teamwork approach is probably maybe a better way of doing personal work?

00:46:24:16 – 00:47:00:09

I think, again, it comes down to intention. Right. So yeah, I’ve I’ve had quite a few photographers come to the studio, a lot of portrait system photographers come to the studio, and I love it because one, we all shoot differently. We all do different things. We can all learn from each other, right? There’s no competition. The community itself is one of the best parts of this whole journey for me, is learning what other people do, how they do it, and get inspired by that. Cecilia Johannson came up from Connecticut last year and we were just shooting together because we said, Hey, we’re here, we’ve got lights and cameras, let’s do something.

00:47:00:17 – 00:47:31:09

We started shooting each other and working in different ways, shooting in each other’s styles. And it became really interesting because she’s phenomenal with constant light and one light and creates this gorgeous looks that I had no idea how it was produced. And when I saw how relatively simple it was, I realized, Oh, she’s a master at connection as well. And a lot of it comes down to, you know, learning what your client likes.

00:47:31:26 – 00:48:06:27

When I’m working with other photographers, it’s learning how they shoot, not so that I can replicate it, but so that I understand that there are different ways of doing things. And then the way that I do them, you know, Parker Pfister came up and he came through and he’s a master of all things, light and print. And I just watched him shoot. He assisted me on an actual shoot, which is kind of cool, the boss him around a little bit, but it was really cool in the in-between moments to talk to him and say, What are you seeing that I’m not seeing? Yeah.

00:48:07:12 – 00:48:23:00

What are the things that you would do? Not that I’m going to replicate it, but I’d love to understand how he sees that that moment in time. So I love having other photographers come through just so that I can see the world through their eyes. And that fascinates me.

00:48:23:25 – 00:48:54:04

I would imagine, too, that it’s helpful too to hear maybe someone’s perspective on how you shoot as well, that because we don’t see ourselves the way other people see us. I know like a long time ago or like four years ago, Saray and I had a chance to like kind of shoot together after helping Sue at one of her workshops. And it was really crazy because, I mean, I got to watch her shoot. And she is so creative and so much energy and she’s constantly switching outfits and props.

00:48:54:06 – 00:49:27:18

And I was like, well, like, my brain does not function this fast. And like, of course, me being a very overthinker comparison person made that, Oh, I suck. Like I don’t my brain doesn’t work like this. There’s something wrong with me. It was like my first thought and then it was my turn. I was very like slow. And the way that I shoot and then like to have her say like, Oh, I really found I don’t even remember what she said, but like something that I did was like really interesting or she really liked the way I pose people or something. I was like, you do? Like, oh, that’s cool.

00:49:27:20 – 00:50:05:27

And I like still have those moments when someone will see something in me that I maybe don’t see myself. So especially someone I admire. And then, like you said, I was able to learn so much from her, like, wow, that’s that’s really cool. Maybe I should push myself to, like, try new outfits or just go way outside the box and stuff. So it was a really cool experience getting to have that day where we got to help each other and work together. And I would encourage everyone, if you can, to find someone in this community and shoot with them because you just never know what you’re going to come up with and learn from each other and to both tell each other what you enjoyed about seeing the other one work.

00:50:05:29 – 00:50:10:15

Because we don’t see ourselves the way other people see us. 100%.

00:50:10:17 – 00:50:53:16

And you know, here in Maine, there’s a lot of photographers, not a lot of portrait photographers in this community. There’s a handful of us for sure. And so one of them is Will Wohler, and he’s in the group quite a bit. He takes amazing. He’s out in Portland, Portland, Maine, and he does amazing self-portraits. He does amazing personal branding work. And he and I and a few others will get together occasionally and just shoot for the fun of it. Hey, teach me how you do this lighting setup. Hey, can we work through all the powers of this flash and these different positions so that I can understand what it looks like and just take a bunch of pictures or hold up an iPad that says, you know, quarter power, 45 degrees, whatever, and now you’re building.

00:50:53:25 – 00:51:25:12

You know, this this literacy in how your own studio works. But you’re collaborating with other photographers that might be able to give you other ideas and might have more experience in one area than you. And learning, you know, keeping that student mindset. Getting rid of competition and just thinking about growth is one of the most important things that we can do. So if you can find other photographers in your area just to work with. Just to play with. Right. Because you don’t have to explain a lot to another photographer.

00:51:25:17 – 00:51:37:02

They get it. So you can just let loose and learn. That’s been invaluable for me. To grow in the craft is to work with other photographers. It’s phenomenal.

00:51:39:03 – 00:51:40:04

I say phenomenal a lot.

00:51:40:17 – 00:51:43:18

No worries. I think I say fantastic a lot.

00:51:46:27 – 00:52:27:11

So with working with other artists, you go, you yourself, you just you named a whole bunch of amazing photographers in right now in this discussion. Another one being Jonny Edward and I know you’ve shot with him. Show with him as well. And Cat and Kate. Well, yeah, he already mentioned her. I said that the people you meet, he hasn’t mentioned Johnny, so I wanted to be sure to put that out there. But how do you keep from then? Because they’re all amazing artists. How do you keep from looking at their work and then comparing yourself and then bringing that down your, you know, putting yourself down? How do you keep from falling into that trap?

00:52:28:15 – 00:53:02:03

They’re them, and I’m me. I don’t want to be them. I don’t want to be Jonny. I don’t want to be Ken. I don’t want to be Parker. Right. I’m me. I want the world to see me. Can I create what they create? Probably I don’t want to say probably because that sounds very egocentric. What I mean is I can follow their style and I can create something in that style, but it’s not mine. I’m trying to emulate someone else. So when I’m around other photographers, especially of that caliber, right where I feel is certainly like low man on the totem pole.

00:53:04:02 – 00:53:34:14

It’s inspiring to me. I love watching how people’s minds work and how they develop a scene and how they tell the story that’s in their head. So for me, I absorb it all like a sponge. I don’t let it get to me. There are times where I’m like, Wow, I’ve got a long way to go. And that. That resistance feels tough, right? It’s like when you start working out and you’re like, I’m going to crush this. And then you’re like, I’m way more out of shape than I thought.

00:53:36:02 – 00:54:12:26

Right. And yeah, but you can either quit or you can just kind of keep at it. I know that a lot of these other photographers that I shoot with have been doing this much longer than me. I will get to my endpoint eventually, but I want to do it my way. I don’t want to be somebody else, and I hope that they look at me the same way and, you know, understand what it is that I’m trying to bring to the community. But I think when you’re able to set aside the comparison, that’s really where you can open yourself up to a lot of creative opportunities.

00:54:13:05 – 00:54:40:03

But when you’re staying in that place of ego, that competition, that comparison, it just stifles you and it really changes your energy. And when you’re around people with good energy that are just giving, that are just serving. You can feel that. And it really, really does come through your work. So stay in that place of service, stay in that place of good energy and just giving to people. And it’s amazing what will come your way.

00:54:40:27 – 00:55:04:21

A comparison really is the thief of joy so. It’s terrible man and we all do it. Just get out of it. But it’s hard. I mean, I think it’s a hard thing to do if you grow up in a situation where you were constantly like in a comparison household or in a comparison mindset. So it does take a lot to unlearn it, but it is something to work on. And I still on the journey myself.

00:55:05:11 – 00:55:37:19

The entire advertising industry is built on telling you you’re not good enough, you’re not good enough, you’re not thin enough, you’re not tall enough, you’re not pretty enough. Right? All of those things, their entire industry is built on that. It’s no wonder that we compare ourselves. But you don’t have to do that. You don’t have to do that. Just step back, follow your own path. You’re going to get to that endpoint. Just enjoy the journey along the way. It’s not about winning awards or entering competitions or being better than somebody else.

00:55:38:03 – 00:55:44:07

It’s about connection. It’s about good energy. And you’ve got to do that on your own.

00:55:44:20 – 00:55:45:05

Yeah.

00:55:45:14 – 00:55:47:06

Yeah. That’s all I can say.

00:55:48:25 – 00:56:12:18

I mean, it’s just like it’s life, right? Like we’re only on this planet for so long. And we should just remember that sometimes. And remember that at the end of the day, like on our last day on Earth, are we going to say we wished we had won a few more awards or we wish we had done the fun things and like enjoyed things more? So sometimes it just comes down to that very basic human real.

00:56:13:01 – 00:56:14:27

I wish I would have gotten the gold somewhere.

00:56:16:21 – 00:56:22:24

You know, I feel like I wish I had gone to Hawaii more that will always be my wishe.

00:56:22:26 – 00:56:23:21

Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:25:28 – 00:56:28:09

I think you’re. I think you’re absolutely right. So go ahead, Kevin.

00:56:28:21 – 00:56:41:17

No, I was going to say we’re coming close to the one hour mark, so I thought I would. Right. That’s what I was thinking, too. But. Any final advice for anyone that might feel

00:56:43:15 – 00:56:57:18

like their their work isn’t enough there? The comparison to whether it’s an award or to another photographer or whether they should even be doing photography at all. Any words of advice for those people?

00:56:58:17 – 00:57:30:08

If it makes you feel good, this is going to sound terrible. If it makes you feel good, do it. Right. So if you find that the craft of photography is wearing you down, that the business is grinding you to a halt. Right. You’re feeling all this fear and resistance. Take a step back. There’s there’s no pressure on you from anybody but yourself. Right. So take a step back. Start to connect with what does bring me joy. Right. If you do nothing but shoot newborns and you can’t stand newborns anymore.

00:57:30:18 – 00:58:02:02

Shift to pets. Play with, you know, play with dogs for a while. Right. If you’ve never shot the genre. Try that. Try things. Expand your consciousness. Expand your vision. Expand your craft. You’ll find that all of these things that you take in just add to your experience. And you may find yourself growing in different ways than you thought before. But you’ll never do that if you just sit and keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over.

00:58:02:08 – 00:58:32:13

You’ve got to expose yourself to a lot more. Learn from it. Stay in that student mindset. And it’ll be amazing how far you go. But understand that there’s no pressure on you except you. Right and you can master that. If this thing in your head, that voice you hear was your roommate and all the things that that thing says to you, you’d kick that roommate out in 2 hours. Right. Treat yourself the same way.

00:58:32:15 – 00:58:56:04

Just stop with all of this talk that keeps telling you that you’re not enough or that you’re not good enough. That your pictures aren’t good enough. Put that aside for a second and just understand that what you’re doing is bringing art to the world. You’re connecting with people and making them feel great. Like there’s a lot of really good stuff in there. So step back every once in a while and just be grateful for what you have.

00:58:56:28 – 00:58:59:17

Amen. That was amazing. Mic drop.

00:59:02:04 – 00:59:04:23

That was Matt. Fantastic.

00:59:06:08 – 00:59:08:02

Amazing. Amazin. Phenomenal.

00:59:08:04 – 00:59:11:06

Fantastic thing. You’re Oprah.

00:59:12:19 – 00:59:22:07

Everett. Matt, it is always, always a pleasure to talk to you, whether it’s through one of these clubhouse conversations or in person.

00:59:24:04 – 00:59:34:28

So thank you. Thank you for joining us today. But before we let you go for the one hour mark, can you please share with everyone listening your socials, please?

00:59:35:15 – 00:59:47:15

Sure. Yeah. It’s at Stone Tree Creative on pretty much everything. Instagram, Facebook, StoneTreeCreative.com. But it’s just at stone tree creative all one word and you’ll find me connect with me anywhere.

00:59:48:09 – 01:00:26:07

Perfect. Everyone, please be sure to go follow Matt and make sure to follow the portrait system on Instagram and on Facebook as well. Also, be sure to check out the blog posts that are associated with our clubhouse interviews at SueBryceEducation.Com/Blog. You can follow Ashleigh on Instagram. Ashleigh Taylor Portrait that is ASHLEIGH. And you can find me there as PopLight_photography. And if you are a member of the portrait system and you have any more questions for Matt, Ashleigh, or myself, go tag us in a post in the portrait system members only Facebook group.

01:00:26:24 – 01:00:41:29

And if you are not a member of the portrait system and you are interested in learning about how we can help your business succeed, reach out to Ella on our support team by emailing support@SueBryceEducation.com. Thank you again for joining us and we hope you can join us next week.

01:00:42:20 – 01:01:18:07

Thanks again for listening today. And don’t forget, you can listen to either me or our special guests every Friday on Club House at 11:00 a.m. Pacific. Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System Podcast. Your five-star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So, if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to SueBryceEducation.com, where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1,000 on-demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business, and self-value. 

There’s also the 90 Day Startup Challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to-do checklists for your business, lighting PDFs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that’s SueBryceEducation.com.