FULL TRANSCRIPT: Please note this transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

00:00:00:02 – 00:00:02:07

You’re listening to the Portrait System podcast,

00:00:02:21 – 00:00:20:13

So, it literally didn’t make any sense to me to go play with other people’s children and not get paid handsomely for it. So, I immediately knew that if I was going to be away from my kids for any moment, I was going to charge a lot.

00:00:23:06 – 00:00:58:24

This is the Portrait System Podcast, a show that helps portrait photographers and people hoping to become one. Navigate the world of photography, business, money and so much more. We totally keep it real. We share stories about the incredible ups and the very difficult downs when running a photography business. I’m your host, Nikki Closser, and the point of this podcast is for you to learn actionable steps that you can take to grow your own business and also to feel inspired and empowered by the stories you hear. Hey, there! Today’s guest is Audrey Woulard with Kids and the City. Audrey first picked up a camera when her four kids were young and she had quit her job to be a stay at home mom.

00:00:59:04 – 00:01:31:09

Audrey valued her time away from her family, so much so that she right away started charging high end prices when she first started her business. Audrey specializes in photographing kids, teens, and families, and she does this with ala la carte pricing only, no packages, and she makes an absolute killing doing this. Another thing she talked about during our chat is that it is rare to have a client not come back again for at least a second shoot, and that most of her clients come back a year after year. So we talk a lot about that. Audrey is a Nikon Ambassador Pro Photo Legend of Light.

00:01:31:15 – 00:01:43:18

And she’s just such a cool person, and I feel really honored that I got to interview her. She shared so much incredible information for you. So let’s get started. Hey, Audrey, welcome to the Portrait System. How are you?

00:01:44:07 – 00:01:46:09

I’m doing well. Thanks so much for having me

00:01:46:26 – 00:02:00:23

Yeah, I’m so excited to talk to you. I’ve been sort of following you on Instagram like a couple of months ago, and I was like, I can’t wait to talk to her because I haven’t interviewed anyone who has this sort of, I guess, style that you do with with photographing.

00:02:01:11 – 00:02:08:07

Oh, that’s good. That makes me feel good. I always wonder if I’m sticking out like a sore thumb or blending and you’re never like, know.

00:02:09:24 – 00:02:31:21

well, OK. So you’re in Chicago, right? And then I’m going to try to just kind of describe what you do and tell me if I’m if I’m like. Heading in the right direction, so it seems to me that you do. High end kids and teens portraiture on location outside with like just really beautiful light.

00:02:33:08 – 00:02:35:20

Yes, and thank you for saying it’s beautiful.

00:02:36:18 – 00:02:41:12

You’re welcome. You deserve that compliment. Is that? Did I hit that head on?

00:02:42:03 – 00:02:48:12

You hit it head on. So that’s that is what is my business as of today? Yes.

00:02:48:29 – 00:03:00:16

All right. Awesome. So I know that you are a Nikon ambassador and then you are a pro photo legend of light. Yes. So clearly, you’ve been doing this for a while, right?

00:03:01:20 – 00:03:03:29

So now you’re going to make me date myself. So yes.

00:03:07:04 – 00:03:08:11

Yeah, a long time. So.

00:03:09:08 – 00:03:13:04

So when did you start like and have you always been a photographer?

00:03:14:06 – 00:03:33:26

Um, I started 2005, and no, I have not always been a photographer. I was actually a computer programmer and I loved it. And I ended up quitting because for whatever reason, my husband and I kept having babies and I became a.

00:03:35:15 – 00:03:44:19

And because our younger three are a year apart, I call them the tripod. So I quit my job and became a stay at home mom.

00:03:44:21 – 00:03:52:24

I mean, yeah, how do you even were at that point when all three of them are a year apart? Yeah, that’s like insanity to me.

00:03:53:03 – 00:03:56:07

That probably explains why people say, I’m insane today.

00:03:59:12 – 00:04:09:00

Oh man. OK, so you had your three babies and then you just decided your a stay at home mom. And then how did you end up picking up a camera?

00:04:09:19 – 00:04:14:27

So I quit my job when my we have four kids, we have four boys.

00:04:15:14 – 00:04:19:21

So four boys, yeah, they’re four with my goodness.

00:04:19:23 – 00:04:30:22

We had one for a long, long time, just like when only. And then I was like, Hey, let’s have another. So he was planned. And anyway, back to you, my whole family story.

00:04:32:11 – 00:05:04:04

I quit when my second Jacob was like nine months old, and I started staying home and my husband came home one day with like this really cheap point and shoot camera that he bought from his sister. And he was like, Maybe this will keep you busy, have some fun and have this little. I’ve seen little, but it had a disk adobe photo deluxe in there. This whole digital camera stuff. And so I was like, Oh wow, yeah. So I started taking pictures with this crappy camera and I loved it.

00:05:04:06 – 00:05:45:29

I love love, loved it it was. It was like, so like, addicting like I was. I still have these pictures. I printed them. I was like, All that and literally, that’s how it started. And I started like getting more glorified point and shoot. So like, my dad bought me one and he kept like upgrading because he liked the pictures. My parents love the pictures I was taking of my kids and people started saying, You know how they tell a lot of, you know, especially mothers who start taking pictures? Hey, maybe you should go in the business, but me, if I’m such a business head like the call myself, but I like went full in and the rest literally is history.

00:05:46:01 – 00:05:47:03

That’s literally how it started.

00:05:48:02 – 00:06:13:20

Wow. Wow, OK. And you know, you’re not the first guest that I’ve had who end up picking up the camera because they had their, you know, these little kids. Mm-Hmm. And it starts out with just photographing the kids. And yeah, it’s interesting how that can turn into a business or people will say, like when they got married, they had the experience with the wedding photographer and they’re like, I could do that. And then it seems like weddings and babies are really a lot of the reason some people get into it.

00:06:13:22 – 00:06:19:26

It’s like, I never said I was the person who was born with the camera in the hand. I was like, No, that was not me.

00:06:20:15 – 00:06:31:14

So, yeah, interesting. OK, so when you first started out in your business, were you just like, you know, charging enough to be sustainable? Did you start out as like, shoot and burn? How did that all work?

00:06:31:18 – 00:07:08:15

OK, so back back then literally sound like Fred Flintstone. So but there was like, no, there was no like digitals. That wasn’t a thing. And my philosophy back then and I and in hindsight, it sounds so easy to like, say it. But this is really, truly how I felt because I quit my job to stay home with my kids. So it literally didn’t make any sense to me to go play with other people’s children and not get paid handsomely for it.

00:07:09:00 – 00:07:39:12

So I immediately knew that if I was going to be away from my kids for any moment, I was going to charge a lot and. Literally went out the gate high end because of that, not because of the prestige, Oh, you going to be I am photographer. No, it really wasn’t that I’m like, All right, I’m leaving my kids. My husband had to because we didn’t do daycare. We made a pact not to put our kids in daycare. So, when I left to go take pictures, he had to come home and watch the kids.

00:07:39:22 – 00:07:47:10

So like, even for him, because, you know, sometimes you know, not a dis to men, but you know how men can be not

00:07:48:25 – 00:08:00:01

like if you’re not going to make any money at this, why are you doing it? So that was my that was my motivation. So no, no shoot and burn. I shoot prints, when I think eight high end, that’s awesome.

00:08:00:03 – 00:08:30:09

And you know, before we started recording, we talked a little bit about how there are certain things that we will be away from our kids for. And I know your kids are older now, but you said you could relate to when you were younger, and I have a time limit of how long will be away from my children. If that doesn’t fit in with an opportunity that I have, I’m just I’m just not going to do it. So it’s it’s it is. It’s and it’s interesting too, because when I think back, I have two little boys, they’re three and five now and I had them. Let’s see.

00:08:30:20 – 00:09:02:27

I started my business in 2012 and quit my my social work job in 2014. And then I had my first son in 2016 and my second son in 2018. And it’s funny because like, right when I had my son, you would think that’s when I would have slowed business down. But that’s when it like, I really, really was just making a ton of money. I said, Now that you’re saying it, I’m like, Oh my gosh, it’s because I was not going to be away from my family for nothing like my whole mindset change.

00:09:02:29 – 00:09:05:17

Yeah. So it’s so interesting to hear you say that.

00:09:05:19 – 00:09:35:21

Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes now that my kids are all adults, you know, and I know how it is, you know, having children. And then, you know, as women, we want to have something for ourselves. So have life, something we love to do. You know, outside of our family and hindsight, now that my kids are older, I literally have zero regrets because I spent I even slowed it down once they got into high school because I didn’t want to miss basketball games.

00:09:36:00 – 00:09:38:28

I chose so much of what I did around my family.

00:09:39:22 – 00:10:06:27

Yeah. Gosh, we’re so much alike in this way because I’m I’m thinking that too. Like my kids. Like I said, they’re three and five now. I have one in kindergarten and I I would like to not be shooting as much in the next couple of years because, like you said, I don’t wanna miss out on anything. Yep. Once they’re starting sports and then I want to volunteer in the class and that’s the beauty of being an entrepreneur is you get to kind of decide when, when you’re going to work, which is amazing.

00:10:07:02 – 00:10:07:27

Yeah, yeah.

00:10:08:02 – 00:10:35:02

And this isn’t to say like. Part of me is kicking myself like, it shouldn’t take having kids for us to value our time like people without there who don’t have kids like you don’t have to value your time. You and I can just this is this was just what motivated us. But it shouldn’t take kids for us to value our time. You know, our time is valuable, whether or not we have children or pets or, you know, we’re single or whatever it is, it’s just that was what it took for me to finally be like, All right,

00:10:35:08 – 00:11:16:24

this is this is it? And then just for everybody, like everyone has something that’s the motivator. It’s, you know, obviously with its kids, it’s a little bit more in your face. But we all have that. That’s something that will motivate us to make whatever change that you need to make. You know, that will make you feel, I guess, I don’t know if we’re going to see is sustainable, but you know, just good for yourself because I, you know, some of the things that I do. People used to say, Well, why did you know why? So like, you know, for example, I was speaking at that last well, two years ago, I remember had to speak at WPPI and it was senior night for my third kid and we were not missing that.

00:11:16:29 – 00:11:48:27

We were late. And there was like one flight to Vegas, so we can make it in time. And we took like the crappiest flight to Vegas to make it because we were not missing that, that that, you know, that night. And even then, there was another time I remember the very first time I spoke for Nikon. My husband comes with me for these different events. But one of our kids was playing in the basketball game is a really important game, and we know that they need our support. Obviously, I couldn’t know, but my husband got on a flight so he can watch that game.

00:11:49:11 – 00:11:56:19

So like, we just put the kids first, and that’s just the motivator in terms of like time. That’s just it. Mm hmm.

00:11:57:05 – 00:12:32:15

Mm hmm. Yeah. Boundaries around your your private time, your family time, your friend time, you know, whatever that looks like to you is it is. It’s so, so, so important. So, OK, so when I want to think about your business, then you know, when you came, you said right out of the gate, like, right, then in their high end, how? How different is your business now compared to how it was then and take out the educator? It’s like, I know you’re an educator as well, but if you were looking at just your your photography business, how different is it now?

00:12:32:17 – 00:12:50:29

Oh my gosh, it’s actually the same, which is fine. That’s what I was wondering. Yeah, it’s actually that. And I sometimes feel I have to like conform because the times are just different. But I’m so stubborn that I have. I am really, really bad with it. But no, it’s exactly the same. It’s exactly the same.

00:12:51:21 – 00:13:05:23

All right. So Audrey, take us through it then, because I know you said you do prints and you have an I snooped on your website said your session fee is four hundred and fifty dollars. So that’s all I know. So take us through what a whole experience is with you.

00:13:06:02 – 00:13:12:18

OK, so I do things kind of from a psychological perspective in terms of selling.

00:13:14:11 – 00:13:40:10

I have I really just have a session fee and prints. I buy seven sixty five eight eight five, 10 eight and going off of memory now if I 10, 80, 11 by 14, one fifty five and three twenty five for 16 by 20 and then just goes out from there. And then outside of just prints a la carte, no packages, I sell an album for twenty eight hundred dollars and that is

00:13:40:12 – 00:13:41:10

twenty eight hundred.

00:13:42:17 – 00:14:09:27

Yep, nice. And the thought process around that whole a la carte album philosophy, no packages, you know? No, no. I guess what’s the word I’m going to say pre thought, you know, item to sell comes from a high end selling perspective. So if you think about it like this and if I end up air my dirty laundry about my shopping habits, So be it, I don’t care anymore.

00:14:11:12 – 00:14:44:00

But when you go into a lot of high end boutiques, you get to a certain level level. There are items that just exist in the back room and they’re always for sale to anyone. But the sales rep likes to make you feel very special as if they’re getting it just for you. So case in point, my client says to me, if I’m at a client’s house, I’m just giving you a story here. I say, you know, Oh, a canvas paper look really nice.

00:14:44:02 – 00:15:20:02

Well, what’s a canvas? But you know what? I can get this for you special. I can have it framed, and I can just go into that entire sales point and it makes the client feel it. And you know, it is that way that this is something special just for them. If I had a price list of just everything on it, it takes up that special, personable piece to it. A really big aspect of my business that in hindsight, I didn’t plan this, but I know it now. But back then I didn’t is that I try to make people feel like they are my only client.

00:15:20:24 – 00:15:47:13

I have a staff of 12, but I’m very much the very first point of contact in terms of email, in terms of whenever you want to speak to me because I don’t want to feel untouchable because the people that I deal with have choices. They have options. They don’t have to come to me. They don’t want to. But I’ve been with the majority of my clients, literally since newborns. And now, I mean, most of them are now in college and they still come back every year.

00:15:48:17 – 00:15:52:24

That is that’s pretty remarkable. I have so many questions to ask you right now.

00:15:53:18 – 00:16:26:10

Yeah. And like I would like to think I’m a good photographer, but a lot of it is that I’m part of the family now. And they they want to come to me. And the secondary aspect of that is I take pictures as opposed to go into someone else and they have to continue that or begin a new relationship. They don’t want to do that. They would rather spend the money with me because I know their kids if they have like, you know, I’m actually dealing with a very long time now. And as you have been photographing the older since she was a newborn, all the kids is really bored.

00:16:26:21 – 00:16:57:09

But, you know, she’s not teenagers, she’s 17, and she’s been going through some things. She gained a lot of weight and her mom knew she can say whatever it is to me to make sure those pictures come out to the point where her daughter is happy to see them. The mom would have wanted to do that with anyone else. So a big, huge part of my business is being extremely personable from a business perspective. I charge for that, and that’s kind of where where it goes. But that’s yeah, that’s it. I don’t it.

00:16:58:02 – 00:17:22:16

I’m looking at your Instagram and there’s someone it says, Happy 17th birthday to this lovely girl. Swipe to take a look at her throughout the years and you can see where she’s younger and you can see all the shoots that you’ve done of her and the variety that you’ve gotten. And it just it’s you’re planting the seed to people that I don’t. People don’t just come to me one time they come to me multiple times like, you’re planting the seed on social media and I love that.

00:17:22:24 – 00:17:27:07

Yeah, I love that. If I don’t get a return client, honestly, I feel I failed. I’m serious.

00:17:27:24 – 00:17:53:25

OK, so I want to talk about how you keep getting these returned clients, and I also want to talk about this staff of 12 that you mentioned. So I’m going to keep these on the back burner for a second because I just want to finish up with the pricing. So. So you know, you have the different print options and then you have the special album, but you said you don’t have any sort of just like packages, it’s just this a la carte. So, OK, so what about digitals? Do people get digitals?

00:17:54:18 – 00:18:13:11

So. Yes and no. So they’re tachnically not for sale, but I do have some clients who would prefer to have some digitals and they usually get them at the album. And if I’ve been with you for a long time, then I will sell them and that’s $4000, and that’s like an add on.

00:18:13:15 – 00:18:29:29

Wow. OK. Yeah, I love that. OK. So let’s talk about how how you keep these clients coming back. What what do you feel like in your kind of, I guess, service experience that you’re providing to people keeps them coming back?

00:18:30:13 – 00:19:03:07

Oh, OK. So from a photography perspective, I keep things I think like a mom because obviously I photograph, you know, kids and families. So I think like a mom in terms of a mom who doesn’t want to be bothered if that makes any sense. So I tell them, don’t worry about it, I’m going to take care of it. That’s literally the motto, Don’t worry about it. I’m going to take care of it. I’m not going to burden them with contracts. I’m not going to burden them with, you know, this is the clothing list.

00:19:03:14 – 00:19:37:09

I’m not going to burden them with. We have to photograph at six o’clock or eight o’clock in the morning. No, in between. I’m going to be available at any point of the day. So if you talk from a photographer perspective, I need to know how to do that. Now, from an Audrey perspective that began because I was only, you know, photographing when my husband can come home, you know, to watch my kids. So I got really good at shooting at High Noon that came from my life. So I took that aspect and brought it into my business. So when mom say, Hey, I’m only available at this time, OK, great, I got it.

00:19:37:18 – 00:19:51:10

You’re perfectly fine when clients deal with me. They know that A. They don’t have to put a lot of work into making sure they get a great product,

00:19:53:09 – 00:20:11:03

too. They also know that I’m very upfront. I’m not going to just say stuff just to say it if something doesn’t look good. I don’t like what you’re wearing. They know I’m going to say it because if, if I don’t, I just do myself a disservice. I don’t get a sale. You know what I mean?

00:20:11:16 – 00:20:12:21

So totally.

00:20:12:26 – 00:20:46:02

They know that they can trust. I build a lot of trust because I try my best to show up as authentic as I possibly can. And it just it really just works. I mean, we try to find reasons for that. Like the kids get along with me. I’m, you know, let’s see, for example, like if they’ve got like a son who just like, I’m done, I don’t want to be there. I’m so upfront with him. I’m like, You know what? Just give me two pictures of your kid. You know what? You know you didn’t do that, right? If you don’t do it right, I’m taking 100 more pictures.

00:20:46:04 – 00:20:52:25

It’s all like a joke. Do you know what I mean? But I’m like, I’m so like, I guess to them.

00:20:54:18 – 00:20:56:26

But this is a bad word. I think I’m so normal,

00:20:58:22 – 00:21:16:21

right? Yeah, I yeah, I just don’t. I don’t take myself too seriously. I don’t try to preplan what I think people are going to say. Instead, I pick up on people and I’m very much go with the flow. I guess this was that was a ramble, Nikki. I think about it. No.

00:21:16:29 – 00:21:50:16

Well, you said some good things in there, though. Really, what it’s about is the connection. It’s like the connection that you’re making with people. And also, like you said, making it easy. You know, when people will say, like, well, I gave him my business card and they didn’t call me and I’m like, all you did is gave them something to put on their to do list. Get their information. If you can make it easy, follow up with them. Find out when they’re available. I mean, it’s just a matter of making making life easy for them and connecting or two things that I think as soon as they need this experience again, they’re like, Oh yeah, Audrey’s my girl.

00:21:50:18 – 00:22:04:25

She made it easy. It was fun. She made my kid feel comfortable and I love the product. I mean, really, that’s what it comes down to, is that connection the service. And it doesn’t matter what you cause at that point because you just did what they needed from you.

00:22:05:06 – 00:22:37:14

That’s absolutely true. And one thing you know, I don’t want to come off like, I’m, you know, this uber confident person. I mean, I’m confident in a lot of areas, but I’ve got a lot of insecurities too. But with my business, I’m really confident in my choices. And I don’t overthink it, and I find that a lot of photographers tend to overthink and they don’t trust themselves. So they try to say, you know what, if they don’t buy anything? So now they got to put something in place because of what they think will happen.

00:22:37:23 – 00:23:09:20

And that just kind of, you know, sets them up, in my opinion, for setbacks. So I don’t do that. Instead, I am confident in the product that I deliver. I’m confident in what I you know what I do and that and that, I guess I guess feeling, you know, that energy transcends to the client and they want that. They want to know you’re confident in every choice that you make if you have any sort of doubt that energy tends to transcend to a client.

00:23:10:01 – 00:23:29:14

And, you know, and that’s what you don’t want. So I try my best to be confident with my decisions. If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work? If it works great, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I will sleep well at night, and that’s what I think a lot of photographers, photographers really, really need to practice is having that confidence in what they deliver.

00:23:30:20 – 00:24:07:03

Absolutely, and it goes like all goes back to that self-value and, you know, sue teachers, that just amazingly and it is really hones in on it because it’s so, so important. And that’s just another example, exactly what you just said. So, you know, oftentimes in our group, we hear people say things like what? What if, what if they don’t buy or what if they don’t like this folio box and they want an album? Or what if they tell me I’m not worth it or whatever? And it’s like we could come up with what ifs all day long? What you’re creating a story that’s causing you anxiety.

00:24:07:05 – 00:24:41:05

And it hasn’t happened. And likely it’s not going to If you exactly what you said, Audrey, when you are confident about what you’re presenting to them. Why? Why are they going to question it? And yeah, not everyone’s going to book you. And that’s OK. Like, That’s just normal. That’s a loaw of averages, right? Right. But like if you’re just like wavering back and forth all the time, and what if that you’ll never have a successful business? Because if I had said like, well, what if they say no or or what if you know they don’t want to shoot during the week and they only want to do weekends? And all this is like my business wouldn’t be what it is today.

00:24:41:13 – 00:25:14:18

I’m available on these days. This is my pricing, but I will say too, though, I know I have a strong portfolio just like you do. Like, there are certain things that people, you know, you really have to make sure that you have covered. You have to have a good portfolio. You know, you’ve got to have a website that looks professional. You know, there are certain things that really should be in place before you. You know, before everything starts to happen and you’re getting the clients or whatever. Right? Once you’ve got some of those, at least some of those things in place, it does not need to be perfect whatsoever.

00:25:15:18 – 00:25:19:00

You can just just it’s all about that confidence and just going for it.

00:25:19:04 – 00:26:00:03

Yeah, I think, you know, people, I think people in general, not even just photographers, but people in general, it’s easy to to blend in. It’s harder to stand out. And if people just take the curve, have the courage to be different. Stand out, I price. It gets lonely at times, but I try my best not to blend in. I just don’t like to do it. Like, you know, one of the things I do with my clients is and people laugh at it is that I will not take them to a place to photograph them where they can envision the shot.

00:26:00:26 – 00:26:31:27

I want it to be the crapiest looking location ever where they can’t say that this is going to be, you know, great. Like if someone said to me, Oh, my flowers bloomed, I want to take pictures of my backyard, I’m like, Nope, not going backyard. We’re not going to do it there because of they can envision, the shot. Then what do you need me for? And I like I had. I’ve had two studios big ones, and I ended up getting rid of them because I just started to get bored and I didn’t want them to to guess what I was doing.

00:26:31:29 – 00:26:39:17

Oh, we’ve got a great backdrop going to put you there. We can envision what that shot is going to be. I don’t want that at all. Now I sound like a diva.

00:26:40:01 – 00:26:54:03

No, I really like this because it’s almost like under promising overdelivering. Like in their head, they’re thinking, like, how is this even going to look good? And then when they’re like, Oh my gosh, like, look at that.

00:26:54:12 – 00:27:26:07

Yeah, that’s and that’s the only way they know to do it right. And now they’re like, Oh, I’m like, you know, if I’m, you know, if I if I showed you some of the places that I photograph in. You’re like, Oh my God, like, I’m, you know, I’ll take this in place. And there’s probably like a puddle of pee, like two feet away. And so I’ll say something like, then I’m like, Do you know we trust you? Like that is literally a victory for me the minute they said, Nope, we trust you. Oh, great. Because the light’s beautiful here.

00:27:26:12 – 00:27:31:10

It probably stinks. But you’re going to love the picture. And they let me do it.

00:27:31:12 – 00:28:01:16

Yeah, yeah. Just trust me on this. I say, you know, I always and even like some of the poses, I do it feel so awkward when you’re in the pose and people are kind of like looking at me and I’m like, I just need to trust me, OK? And they’re like, OK. Or when people have their own ideas about where they want to go and you know how they want me to do things, I’m like, OK, so I want you to show. Show me some of the photos that you really love. And you know why of why you booked me. Like, Show me what you love and they’ll be like, why I love this one and this one, this one.

00:28:01:18 – 00:28:18:01

And I’m like, OK, so if you want your photos to be consistent with the work that you see on my website and my Instagram and everything, the reason you booked me, you’ve got to trust me and let me do my thing. And they’re like, Oh, OK. And not that I’m not flexible. Like, if someone wants a certain location, I’m not going to like.

00:28:19:18 – 00:28:29:04

You know, it’s not like a never I’m, but there are times when I’m just like, Listen, if you want what you see, the reason you book me, you’ve got to let me do this right, right?

00:28:29:10 – 00:28:44:28

Yeah. Like, we have to deliver, you know, customer service. So like you said, we’re not going to like saying no, but I’m really, really convincing to say you don’t want that. And you might want this better. So. So yeah, I’m with you.

00:28:45:09 – 00:29:15:12

Yeah, for sure. OK. So I think we, you know, hopefully people listen to that really take really take it all to heart because so much of this is confidence and self-value. And just and sometimes you just have to fake it till you make it. You know, it’s like, I remember the first time I said my my prices when they were much higher than what I had ever charged before. I was like sweating bullets, you know, like in my head, I’m like, Oh my God, what am I doing? You know? But she’s like, OK, done. And I was like, Oh, oh, wow.

00:29:15:23 – 00:29:26:20

And then you realize, like, OK, I got this like, I can totally do this. So it just takes time and practice. And uh, but once you once you finally do get that confidence, it’s it’s it’s life-changing. It really is.

00:29:26:26 – 00:29:27:27

Yeah, yeah.

00:29:29:11 – 00:29:35:28

OK, so let’s move on. You said you have a staff of 12, so I’m really, really surprised by this. Tell me, tell me more.

00:29:36:20 – 00:30:02:27

OK, so first and foremost, I don’t manage them because I don’t want to do that. My husband does. My husband works in the business, so most of them work on my teachers website. So that is where I teach photographers. And so the editing and all of that. And then I have someone who actually helps me with my day-to-day life.

00:30:04:21 – 00:30:39:09

My my main assistant. Because you know what? I told you that I wanted to make sure I’m very personable with people. Along with that comes a lack of proper scheduling, if that. So I shoot from the hip a lot. So like case in point, you know, especially with fall, I’m starting to stack appointments in the day, which can become, you know, really bad when you’re working on location.

00:30:39:25 – 00:31:04:24

So I will say certain things like to a client, Oh yeah, we can do it on this day, and I will just I will just say it because I want to keep that same person, you know, personal thing. I shoot my assistant a text and then she’ll think, No, can’t do it. Do know. I mean, like, she’s kind of like, I was think I was cut. Tell her, it’s like the Jetsons. You have someone like living in your head. So she really like keeps me together. I mean, of all all,

00:31:05:04 – 00:31:06:16

I need her. I need her.

00:31:08:19 – 00:31:25:23

Yeah, she she keeps me together. And just like even even today, my husband made dinner plans and there’s a Nikon event here in Chicago, they’re both at the same time, but we fixed it. But if if it was up to me, I would just be double booked every day, right?

00:31:26:03 – 00:31:29:08

Yeah, yeah. Oh, scheduling is so hard.

00:31:29:25 – 00:31:40:19

So the majority people work with the husband on the teacher side, and then I have two people. So to pick my main assistant and the other one helps the packing, packaging and things of that nature.

00:31:40:24 – 00:31:44:17

OK, so like with client orders, they help with that sort of thing.

00:31:44:29 – 00:32:20:23

Oh gosh, yeah, I don’t place any orders because I will mess them up like I will tell. Yeah, I do all of my main editing because I like to edit. I actually like to edit, but depending on what’s going on, I just can’t do it. And I don’t really trust a lot of people. So I needed to have someone who I can just like, pass it off to because like, if I always feel like this, I don’t know if this way, if I have to check up on you, I don’t need you. Yes. And I and my husband said, that’s a bad way to think, but that’s kind of like how I am.

00:32:20:25 – 00:32:29:00

If I have to double check what you’re doing, then I don’t need you. I need people where I can say, do this and I never have to worry about it again.

00:32:30:04 – 00:32:39:28

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s the best kind of person to work with you is someone who just is independent and they can self-manage.

00:32:41:14 – 00:33:17:10

I swear that’s a lot of the reason why I resist hiring more people is because I don’t want to. I have a hard time managing myself and I do not want to manage other people. I just don’t want to do it, but we have a lot of people who ask, like, how do you add an associate photographer? How do you add an assistant? Like, how do you how do you do that? And it’s like everything you’re saying about having someone to order the prints, to package them, to ship them. That’s one of the reasons I shied away from prints forever is I did not want to do that. And the thought of having to train someone and manage someone to do it makes me want to crawl the ball in the pool right now.

00:33:17:12 – 00:33:41:28

So yeah, like literally, I was that way for ever. And it wasn’t until my husband started jumping into the business and I was like, Well, you deal with it because I’m not, you know? So he deals with it. So right now, he just manages literally just manage like if that’s what you want to do it. I don’t have anything to do with it. It’s, you know, if you put my name on it, make sure that happens.

00:33:42:00 – 00:33:49:01

So awesome, Audrey. So do you have anyone who shoots for you? Or it’s just more like assistant kind of

00:33:49:15 – 00:34:21:00

self that is a source of contention in the work household. So to answer the question, you know? And that’s because of me. My husband wants me to hire other photographers, but then I’m like, Well, then the personable part goes away. Mm-Hmm. So we are toying with the idea, and it’s just me. Like you say, I crawl up in a ball and I go and do it. But we are toying with the idea of having kids in the city, in different cities and just have their own photographer.

00:34:21:15 – 00:34:29:05

Well, in the fact that you branded it and it’s not your name is a really smart and makes it almost easier to do that.

00:34:29:07 – 00:34:32:21

I have to tell you that story and how that happened was if you have time.

00:34:33:05 – 00:34:34:08

Yes, please do.

00:34:34:14 – 00:34:36:24

Oh, you want to tell you now? Yeah.

00:34:37:11 – 00:34:38:19

If you want to, oh

00:34:39:09 – 00:35:09:11

oh oh, you will literally see how insane I am. So. And I know, like sometimes when people see you online, they think that I’m very, very serious and I am literally the polar opposite of that. So my business used to be Audrey Woolard photography for ever. That was a debate under my corporation. And so what happened was my at my second studio had that for like eight years, right? And it had a rooftop.

00:35:10:05 – 00:35:41:15

And this is when a lot of the kids grew up and I started photographing mostly tweens because I started babies and they all grew up. They give you word of mouth, so you start to get people that same age, right? And Instagram started and I told you I was really, really stubborn, didn’t want to have. I just just don’t conform very easily. So I didn’t have Instagram. I didn’t start Facebook until people were, well, well on it. So I only got Instagram. How many of you were photographed all of these teenagers and and knew the kids that I photographed.

00:35:41:17 – 00:36:15:00

I grew up with them, so I know them. So she’s like, Can you post on if you’re some of my pictures on Instagram, I’m like, Yeah, sure. And I did that, and these teenagers came in droves. I’m talking droves, right? And on my Instagram, my personal Instagram, you know, you had pictures, but I had like the wine, her shoes, you know, just like it was just, like, really inappropriate because I was taking a lot of pictures of like alcohol. So into when I was editing, I was I’m a big sex and the City fan.

00:36:15:10 – 00:36:22:15

I watch Sex and the City. And when I was watching, I’m like, Oh, kids in the city. There you go. Ding, ding ding.

00:36:23:08 – 00:36:23:26

I love it.

00:36:23:28 – 00:36:55:27

Made the Instagram and I said, All right, I’m a put your, the pictures over here. Send your friends there. Get them off of my page so I can continue to post pictures of my heels and margaritas. So they all go over there. And again, if I told you, I’m big, my marketing at this point is very much word of mouth. What people were calling the studio asking for kids in the city. I’m like, No, no, that’s just an Instagram name. It’s not it. Well, my daughter wants to book something with kids in the city like, Oh my god, oh my god, oh my God.

00:36:56:06 – 00:37:23:09

So to my husband’s like, you’ve got to rebrand because you’re losing clients. Because when these kids start bugging their parents, the parents think my daughter is, you know, insane. There’s no such thing as kids in the city. So I did completely rebrand so I can keep this new clientele coming in and so made another dba. Kids in the city made sure that I can change my name on my Facebook page and all of that. And literally, that’s how that started.

00:37:24:13 – 00:38:00:14

I love it, and it’s you’re kind of in a really great place for an associate and partner, I kind of want to encourage you to do that. I had an associate. I’m actually so sad right now because she she moved from Seattle, but because when I moved from Seattle back to Michigan, I had so many Seattle clients were like, When are you coming back? When are you coming back? Well, like we talked about, when you have little kids, it’s not just like I can hop, hop on a flight real quick and bust out, you know, four days of shoots and fly back. And it’s just it got to be really hard. And my associate shooter is someone who she watched my kids for two years, two days a week, and she’s photographer.

00:38:01:08 – 00:38:36:18

At the time, I knew that she was someone I would never have to hold her hand. She was going to work it out. She was always on time. She never called in. She’s reliable. She’s and she’s also personable, like you said. Hmm. And I knew what I was ready to add an associate. She was who I would offer it to first hands down because when someone watches your kids, you really get a feel for them. Know? And she was at my house. So I just, you know, I knew her very well. So all I had to do is train her to pose and light in my studio exactly how I do.

00:38:36:20 – 00:39:06:15

And she was already photographer, so she knew the basics. And I’ll tell you what. There’s nothing like having her. Shoot there, so she would do you know, everything a book through me? Mm hmm. She would do the shoot. She would call them, send them to me. I would make sure they’re all good. Everything’s good to go. Send them off to the retoucher. And then she would do the photo viewing. Janelle will do the photo reveal. Mm hmm. And we would just share the profits. And it was amazing. And then she had she left Seattle.

00:39:08:04 – 00:39:30:05

I will have to say, though, it was something that it was so great. And it’s I’m really sad because I know I have a lot of Seattle clients waiting on me to come back and I’m just trying to work that out. But if I find someone that you don’t have to handhold Audrey, it is the best because it’s basically passive income. I mean, sort of sort of not. But when you can have two of you,

00:39:30:23 – 00:40:01:25

it’s the best. Yeah. And that’s I mean, because I do have a lot of clients that have moved even. I was just in D.C. this past weekend, and I didn’t even know that that client moved to D.C. until I was there. So like I, she’s following an Instagram account in D.C. So I, yeah, I just I just don’t want to manage it. I’m just that because I’m so that’s so hard. I’m so like particular. I didn’t realize how particular I am a really, really particular. But I’m not really good at vocalizing it.

00:40:01:29 – 00:40:06:09

I just will tell you, when you messed up, I’m a I’m a horrible boss. That’s what my husband takes over

00:40:08:24 – 00:40:14:14

there. Like, they’ll be like, you didn’t tell me. I’m like, I know, but you were supposed to, like, understand telepathy and to know that I didn’t want you to do that.

00:40:14:24 – 00:40:21:20

So, yeah, I just expect you to know that, right? That’s too hard. Like, too much. My husband is like,

00:40:23:08 – 00:40:27:24

Yeah, what? Like, how would I have known that? I’m like, I don’t know. I know.

00:40:28:25 – 00:40:44:23

So it’s like, I get that. That is on my short list. I just have to be convinced a bit more. But like I know, we’ve got all of like the notes and everything together. It’s just I have to just say, Right? Let’s do it. I’m really bad

00:40:45:02 – 00:41:23:13

for people listening who want to have an associate photographer or grow their team like in that way. I mean, having a name that isn’t your name is kind of important in this way because of when you know, it’s hard. I have to really explain like I have, I have this associate photographer. Her name is Janelle. She’s amazing. She shoots just like me. She does a shoot. I do the editing. We’re like a great team. Like, I have to go through this whole spiel. Whereas if my name was something more broad, people wouldn’t necessarily think, Oh for sure, getting Nikki because it could be just like a team of photographers and you get who you get, but it’s consistent with what you see on the website or whatever.

00:41:23:15 – 00:41:32:09

So, yeah, no, no. You’re right, you’re right. You’re right. Good. All right. Next time we talk, maybe I’ll have an associate

00:41:32:11 – 00:41:47:00

with, I mean, it sounds like like you’ve been so successful for so long, you know? But eventually, if you get to the point where you don’t want to shoot, then you have people shooting for you or you could even sell you some of the business kids in the city. You know, it’s like there’s lots of options, right?

00:41:47:02 – 00:42:05:18

Literally, yeah. Because I always tell people I’m on the back end of my career because I do not want to be the old photographer, not that anything goes against that. No, no, you know, but but I, you know, I don’t think in our industry, people talk a lot about retirement and I’m actively working towards that.

00:42:05:28 – 00:42:36:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am as well. Actually, we have had like Kitty McMeil and she was one of our episodes. She started her business at 60 and she is killing it. She’s killing it, but she loves it and it’s new and fresh. Whereas if you start when you’re 20 30, right? You know, by the time you get to 70, it’s like, OK, you know, I’ll be slinging in my camera around. If I started when I was 60, then yeah, that’s different, right? But like you said, retirement, I want to retire before I’m 50.

00:42:37:18 – 00:43:02:00

Literally, I’m right there with you because I sort of in my twenties. So like right now, I mean, I still love it. And sometimes I have to like when we have team meetings, I would say, I still love this guy. Like, I have to convince myself it’s so funny. Like, I still love taking pictures, but yeah, I want to retire. At least. I mean, my realistic goal is in 10 years, that’s a realistic goal. Mm-Hmm.

00:43:02:06 – 00:43:40:24

Mm-Hmm. Which is awesome. In part of that, you know, it’s so important to understand and value exactly what we talked about your time and your money. Like Sue has these talks on the on her website. It’s the money wheel of misfortune. It’s called, and she just goes through all the reasons why people leak money. And it hit home so hard. And once I was able to shift my mentality around that, that is what is going to help me to retire when I’m 50 or in my 50s. Hopefully, you know, when I’m 50 because it’s money management, it’s not like you could have a really successful business, but still not have money management or whatever.

00:43:40:26 – 00:43:41:12

So I’m just

00:43:41:17 – 00:43:46:09

that with me in. My in my heyday, yeah.

00:43:46:21 – 00:44:06:17

Yeah, I was there. Trust me, I was like in debt and, you know, thankfully I changed things around and it’s totally different now. Yeah, but you know, since it’s one of those things like for people listening out there, like even if you are bringing in significant amount of money right now, you have to make sure you are managing it well.

00:44:06:20 – 00:44:11:03

Oh my gosh. I mean, you know, so I’m going to air my I’ve never told anybody this.

00:44:11:21 – 00:44:14:24

So now you’re not you’re not on the podcast. I love it. I didn’t

00:44:14:26 – 00:44:50:06

know. I feel like I need to get this off my chest. Because me and my husband, we’ve been together forever. Right? So he’s always he knows all my dirty laundry and he’s like, You need to say this. I’m like, I’m saying that. But I made so much money that I look around like that 2010, 2015 mark. You know, in between there, I spent probably everything that came into this house on handbags, shoes.

00:44:50:21 – 00:44:58:22

I mean, it was so I mean that because I literally stopped, but I was like a VIP at Louis Vitton. I spent so much money

00:45:00:15 – 00:45:32:12

and I shouldn’t laugh. I mean, I mean, I can laugh at it now, but it’s so I’ve got Berkins, all sorts of stuff. I spent everything that came in this house, every single dime that came in, and I spent it on clothes, shoes, everything, all of it like that. That’s it. That’s that’s literally what I spent that on like. I mean, and it got it got so bad that my husband’s like, OK, this is it. Like, I was. I mean, it was it was like I would walk in. I would go to Louis Vitton.

00:45:32:28 – 00:45:50:08

I when I was in between shoots, you know, if you’re working outside and you stink, they would bring me in the back room and give me like these custom bags that were like, like six to ten grand. Wow. But you know, it sounds like, oh, great, but I don’t have anything left over

00:45:52:08 – 00:46:02:19

Right. I spent everything. Everything that came into this house, so that’s the dirty laundry out there now.

00:46:02:25 – 00:46:33:24

You know what? We all have our dirty laundry and I’ve talked about on this podcast before how when when I started my business, I was in debt and you know it, it finally took. Honestly, it was like those those Wheels of Misfortune talks. I like, Oh my god, it’s like clicking now. Like, I get it, I get it. But but it is something to think about when you’re an entrepreneur is the retirement factor. It’s not like we get pensions. It’s not like we get lifelong, you know, life insurance and health insurance and all of that.

00:46:33:26 – 00:46:59:17

These are things we actively have to be planning for and thinking about. And because I’ve been so attuned to it and so aware and just really focusing on that and setting these goals for myself or when I do want to retire. I’m getting there and in the old me wouldn’t I would be freaking out right now. You know, thinking in my forties, what am I going to do? Yeah, it’s just, yeah, so it’s definitely something to think about.

00:46:59:23 – 00:47:32:01

Yeah, because, you know, when we’re talking about confidence and things like that, if I think you know any any type of mismanagement can stem from confidence or lack thereof. And a lot of that came from just my own insecurities that I… Same. I needed to have that. Like I was convincing myself, I’m not using credit. I was using Cash Girl debit card. Like, literally, that’s what I was doing. I like no debt, but I had no money either. You know what I mean? But I convinced myself that, Oh, well, you re not using credit, you’re using this.

00:47:32:03 – 00:47:49:20

And, you know, now the new orders, but you don’t have anything in the bank. So, right, right? Yeah, I don’t know. It was like it all stemmed from insecurity as you go and people make you feel a certain way. And I learned a lot because I was able to apply that to my business. You know, in hindsight so

00:47:49:22 – 00:48:28:26

well in the fact that you were bringing in so much and are bringing in so much. It shows that the business model that you’re using works really well. I mean, clearly, you know, there is a need for this high end kids teen family. Type of work, I think people so I cannot tell you my mail man today, Audrey said to me there is no money in photography because he left a note because my my very first business name that I registered with way back when I started my business as Nixy Photography, Nixy photography, I thought I was being so clever because, you know, my friends call me Nick and my last name started with a C.

00:48:28:28 – 00:49:00:19

So Nixie and I X-Y like, I thought I was so clever anyway. So so that’s what I’m registered under. And when he delivered a package today, he was like, Hey, you know, you get mail for Nixy photography. I just want to make sure it’s not spam. And I was like, Oh yeah, that’s me. He’s a great photographer, and I was like, Yeah. And so weird. He was like, Oh, I’m a photographer, too. But there’s just no money in it, which is why I’m a postal worker and I’m like, Oh, his name’s Hippy. I’m like, Hippy, we need to talk about this. Like, I was like, I got to go do a podcast recording.

00:49:00:21 – 00:49:34:06

But next time you bring me a package, we’re going to chat about how there is money in photography. You know, I’m like, You don’t know who you’re talking to here, and you need to listen to the portrait system when you’re on your route, you know, and he’s like, OK, OK, well, yeah. A lot of people believe there is, you know, for family photography, for kids that you know, you can’t make more than a couple hundred bucks or 400 or even 500 is like stretching it, you know, and it’s like, No, this is not true. Like there you can make such a good living. I mean, you’re buying $10,000 Louis Vuitton bag like you are proof of it.

00:49:34:17 – 00:50:06:25

Yeah. And I think one thing, too, what most people don’t think about is business, right? Take photography just out of it. And and I will definitely say I lucked out because I have really good business people in my life. My husband has owned his own business before he started working with me, but he had his own business. I met him. He had it even since he was 20. My father is a very successful businessman, so I was able to have a lot of that support system.

00:50:07:06 – 00:50:40:16

So that’s great. In terms of thinking, making money in a business. There are people who have money to spend and they have disposable income. When I when I started, I knew that I wanted to partner with high end businesses within the city of Chicago. Was the very first thing I did at the gate literally is how did it? Because I’m like, All right, I want high end clients who have the disposable income to pay my price period. One. Well, how are you going to do that? You’re nobody. Well, what I did was researched high end businesses who cater to the clients that I wanted to service went there and partnered with them.

00:50:40:22 – 00:51:12:23

I wanted their mailing list. That’s what I want. I wanted to get on their client list so that they can legitimize me as a business. When I was sucking at that point. But that that was the goal being that personable, you know, I looked for, you know, a business that was owned by a family. I was like, I researched all of that, and that’s literally how it started and how I was able to get a high end clientele. People who have money like I can take pictures from, you know, Middle America.

00:51:13:03 – 00:51:46:16

And now that’s about that’s nothing. But it’s the same pictures, except I’m servicing people who have the disposable income to pay what I say. I want to charge its marketing. And I think that a lot of photographers don’t market properly. They just say, Hey, I’m a photographer, and let’s see who will come. No, you got to figure out who you’re servicing and then market to them. That’s what I did. I didn’t just hang my shingle out and say, Hey, I’m taking pictures. I marketed to people specifically, and that’s what I did.

00:51:47:03 – 00:51:47:18

Yeah.

00:51:47:20 – 00:51:54:26

So smart. It’s so smart. Well, you have given so much amazing information today. Thank you so much.

00:51:55:06 – 00:51:57:09

No, thank you. I hope I didn’t ramble too much.

00:51:57:24 – 00:52:09:19

No, it was perfect. I actually have a couple more questions. I always ask people the same questions at the end of each podcast episode. Sure. And the first one is what is something you cannot live without when you’re doing a photo shoot?

00:52:10:16 – 00:52:14:01

My 85mm 1.4 lens, in fact.

00:52:14:03 – 00:52:14:25

Oh, nice.

00:52:14:29 – 00:52:39:25

I have six of them, but I have one that is my favorite. It’s almost like Michael Jordan. He wears his. He used to wear his North Carolina shorts under his jersey. So I have my favorite one that I have had since my now 20 probably. Now, he’s 20 now 20 year old son was in seventh grade and I just have to use that lens.

00:52:41:03 – 00:52:58:21

Awesome. I love the 04:52, too. I have a canon eighty five. But. It’s it’s the best, especially outdoors, it’s harder in my studio. Yeah, have a small studio, but yeah. Cool. OK, second question is how do you spend your time when you’re not working?

00:52:59:21 – 00:53:02:03

Wow. How do I spend my… sleeping

00:53:03:29 – 00:53:18:12

Um sleeping and eating with my? That’s pretty. That’s pretty much what I do. I mean, I hang up my family. I’m so boring. I’m boring, but that’s what I do. I mean,

00:53:18:19 – 00:53:23:00

sounds good to me. Sleep and hang with my family eating. That’s life basically.

00:53:24:08 – 00:53:26:11

And literally, that’s life. Yeah.

00:53:26:24 – 00:53:31:09

Yeah. OK, number three, what is your favorite inspirational quote?

00:53:32:01 – 00:54:00:06

OK, so this is what this is actually one of my favorite quotes that I say a lot, and it stems from the fact that when someone when it’s especially, when I started my business, it just looked like I didn’t put a lot of work into it, and I was just like taking a picture. So it’s by Charles Mingus, and it’s making the simple complicated is commonplace, making the complicated, simple, awesomely simple, that’s creativity.

00:54:01:18 – 00:54:04:04

That’s my favorite quote. I like that. I haven’t heard that.

00:54:04:29 – 00:54:06:05

That’s my favorite quote.

00:54:07:06 – 00:54:14:15

Yeah, I love it. All right, and last question is, what would you tell people who are just starting out?

00:54:15:09 – 00:54:45:18

Oh, that’s a loaded one. I would say a figure out who you are as a person and be proud of who you are and how you approach the world and how you think of things. Your way is always going to be the right way. That would be my first thing because that will help you really hone into how you run your business and you will be very confident in the choices that you make because they’re your own and you won’t second guess yourself.

00:54:46:09 – 00:54:52:15

The second thing I would say niche down. Find something you love and stick with it.

00:54:52:19 – 00:54:53:24

Yes. Mm-Hmm.

00:54:55:08 – 00:55:03:08

Be the best yet. You know, I would say with wedding photographers, the best wedding photographers are the ones who does, she went. That’s what they do.

00:55:03:18 – 00:55:11:29

Yeah, yeah. That’s so true. So true. When I knees down to personal branding, it was like that was in my business really took off first.

00:55:12:21 – 00:55:13:06

Yeah.

00:55:13:14 – 00:55:19:02

And just like you, you’re the go-to you’re the go-to for high end kids, right?

00:55:19:08 – 00:55:47:27

And I was going to say with, you know, with branding, I can’t really take a good branding picture. I’m serious. And it’s not like my friends will say it to me, and they just don’t look right at all because it’s like, not my wheelhouse, you know what I mean? And it seems like, Oh, it’s it’s, you know, it’s still a form of portraits. I’m like, No. It takes a different sector of your brain to get the picture that someone is hiring you for. If you don’t do that, then you’re just just giving them a snapshot.

00:55:50:08 – 00:55:58:14

Yep, yep, so true. Yep. Well, thank you again. Oh, one more question, where can people find you online if they’re looking for you?

00:55:59:02 – 00:56:19:27

My website is Katcteens.com on Instagram. Kids and the city and my facebook. I’m not on Facebook too much, but that’s kids and the city. I think it shows up like that, but that’s where they can find me. And then I have a teaching site. AWTeaches.com.

00:56:20:28 – 00:56:30:20

That’s sweet. Awesome. Well, thank you again. And hopefully we’ll get to meet one day. That would be awesome. I’m sure. Maybe, maybe WPPI next year. Someday we’ll see each other.

00:56:30:23 – 00:56:34:16

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That’s very cool. Thanks for having

00:56:34:21 – 00:56:40:21

you again, Audrey. Yeah, yeah. All right. I will see you online soon. You take care, OK?

00:56:41:00 – 00:56:42:00

Thanks you too.

Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System Podcast. Your five-star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So, if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to SueBryceEducation.com, where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1,000 on-demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business, and self-value. 

There’s also the 90 Day Startup Challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to-do checklists for your business, lighting PDFs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that’s SueBryceEducation.com.